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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 176

post #2626 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

No, I get that (or those). I agree the first is uncontroversial as stated, although I would note that whether a citizen is obligated to follow the lawful order of a police officer, and whether a citizen's failure to do so warrants response X, Y or Z by the police officer are distinct issues. This was clearly the line of argument Piobaire's question went to, and my subsequent comment. Whether or not the point is uncontroversial, it's largely irrelevant to the discussion if you define "lawful order" so broadly that an officer has carte blanche to do anything they want short of telling you to shoot your wife.

As to the second, I don't disagree from a tactical, self-preservation point of view. But it's not so much because an average person can't understand the applicable law. That hardly matters, because for anything but the most egregious violations by the police (and sometimes for those as well) the prospect of post-hoc legal relief is largely illusory. It's more because they have guns and the power and authority of the state at their disposal, and if they murder you it doesn't really help that you correctly identified the exact point at which their directives crossed the line between legally authorized and excessive.

This is well said.
Edited by greger - 7/22/15 at 9:03pm
post #2627 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

What makes you think it wasn't drilled into him ?I haven't lived in the south since the late 60s but I assure you a healthy respect for authority was the order of the day at
that time . Just playing the devils advocate here but I gotta say from personal viewpoint I have never had a negative experience with the police , most neutral and a few highly positive . Now I realize the narrowness of this and I have no intention of denigrating the views of others but I gotta say I do understand somewhat where ' Turk is coming from

I think the ad hominems here are a real "canard," if I can use that word to mean red herring, since it's not the motives of the person advocating a position that matters.

Regardless, "respect for authority" is not what I would call it -- how 'bout "skepticism"? This idea that the grander and more outlandish the claims, the more convincing the proof has to be. There are a lot of influence from my legal training and experience -- presumptions of regularity, burdens of proof, deference to the discretion of people who are actually there and have no time to deliberate their actions, etc., not to mention that I generally know what cops are and aren't allowed to do, which most people don't.

That being said, I do think there's a real need of a respect for authority -- as this case illustrates pretty well. Bland went into this case with a chip on her shoulder and provoked the cop until he had a legal basis to arrest her. She was just plain wrong. In the same vein you'll routinely see hostile crowds form around police officers who are just doing their jobs, witnesses refuse to cooperate with police, crimes go unreported, etc., and, yeah, I don't like it that people are constantly told by the intelligentsia that they're in the right to hate the cops. It does no one any good.

As to my posts in this thread, I often take a contrary position just to test or challenge the opinions that pretty much everyone else here seems to hold. Without me this would just be The Anti-Cop Circle Jerk Thread. Is that what you want?
post #2628 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I think the ad hominems here are a real "canard," if I can use that word to mean red herring,


Permission granted.
post #2629 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Do you want like a statistic or something, re: how often people use cigarettes to cover up the smell of dope or booze? I think they may have taken that question off the 2010 census so I'm not sure where you'd get reliable data...

So you were talking out of your ass. Gotcha
post #2630 of 6095
http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20DECO%2020141127026/STATE%20v.%20GALLAGHER

"The defendant was smoking a cigarette when the officer first approached the defendant's vehicle, in what was also a possible attempt to mask an odor of alcohol on his breath."


http://mo.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20141023_0000931.WMO.htm/qx

"Based on the time of day the vehicle was out in a high-crime area known for drugs, the tinting of the windows, and the fact that there were numerous cigarettes lit when the officers contacted the occupants in the vehicle in what Officer Balsley believed was an attempt to mask other odors that may be present in the vehicle, such as the odor of marijuana, Officer Balsley believed there was contraband in the vehicle."

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20SCCO%2020150128924/STATE%20v.%20MORRIS

"Nichols stated the smell was from a Black & Mild cigar and that he did not smoke marijuana."

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2011/ma-reefer.asp

"As the officers drove down the street, Officer Diaz saw the driver light a small, inexpensive cigar that is commonly known to mask the odor of marijuana smoke."

http://patch.com/georgia/dacula/cigarettes-air-freshener-fail-to-hide-scent-of-marijuana

"On March 8, a officer traveling southbound on I-85 near Hamilton Mill Road noticed a black GMC Yukon weave across the fog line seven times within a one mile distance. The officer initiated a traffic stop and, upon approaching the vehicle, noticed the driver, Griffin Wilt of Boone, N.C., and his passenger, John Templeton III of Gastonia, N.C., both had freshly lit cigarettes. The officer also noticed three “Black Ice” air fresheners hanging on the rearview mirror.

The officer asked if Wilt had been drinking and Wilt said he had not. The officer asked Wilt to exit the vehicle in order to interview him further. According to the police report, once Wilt discarded his cigarette, an odor of marijuana became evident."

I can go on if you like...
post #2631 of 6095
Lol. All taken from the cops' mouths. Just like tinting means you're a drug dealer. Or fresh breath means you're drunk. GTFO.
post #2632 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20DECO%2020141127026/STATE%20v.%20GALLAGHER

"The defendant was smoking a cigarette when the officer first approached the defendant's vehicle, in what was also a possible attempt to mask an odor of alcohol on his breath."


http://mo.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20141023_0000931.WMO.htm/qx

"Based on the time of day the vehicle was out in a high-crime area known for drugs, the tinting of the windows, and the fact that there were numerous cigarettes lit when the officers contacted the occupants in the vehicle in what Officer Balsley believed was an attempt to mask other odors that may be present in the vehicle, such as the odor of marijuana, Officer Balsley believed there was contraband in the vehicle."

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20SCCO%2020150128924/STATE%20v.%20MORRIS

"Nichols stated the smell was from a Black & Mild cigar and that he did not smoke marijuana."

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2011/ma-reefer.asp

"As the officers drove down the street, Officer Diaz saw the driver light a small, inexpensive cigar that is commonly known to mask the odor of marijuana smoke."

http://patch.com/georgia/dacula/cigarettes-air-freshener-fail-to-hide-scent-of-marijuana

"On March 8, a officer traveling southbound on I-85 near Hamilton Mill Road noticed a black GMC Yukon weave across the fog line seven times within a one mile distance. The officer initiated a traffic stop and, upon approaching the vehicle, noticed the driver, Griffin Wilt of Boone, N.C., and his passenger, John Templeton III of Gastonia, N.C., both had freshly lit cigarettes. The officer also noticed three “Black Ice” air fresheners hanging on the rearview mirror.

The officer asked if Wilt had been drinking and Wilt said he had not. The officer asked Wilt to exit the vehicle in order to interview him further. According to the police report, once Wilt discarded his cigarette, an odor of marijuana became evident."

I can go on if you like...

so smokers use cigarettes and/or cigars to mask the smell of illicit drugs and/or alcohol and the complementary air fresheners from car washes are actually a sign of lawlessness. Gotcha
post #2633 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

so smokers use cigarettes and/or cigars to mask the smell of illicit drugs and/or alcohol and the complementary air fresheners from car washes are actually a sign of lawlessness. Gotcha

This is the same guy who posited that "he was going to California and lots of people buy drugs there" was reasonable suspicion for a civil forfeiture. You need to have certain expectations.
post #2634 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

This is the same guy who posited that "he was going to California and lots of people buy drugs there" was reasonable suspicion for a civil forfeiture. You need to have certain expectations.

I was going to explain that you, since you obviously don't understand the argument I made; but I've done it twice already. It's pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

Lol. All taken from the cops' mouths. Just like tinting means you're a drug dealer. Or fresh breath means you're drunk. GTFO.

Maybe the defense attorneys weren't as good as you, if they got it in, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

so smokers use cigarettes and/or cigars to mask the smell of illicit drugs and/or alcohol and the complementary air fresheners from car washes are actually a sign of lawlessness. Gotcha

I don't actually hear you saying that you can't cover up one scent with another. If that were the case Febreeze would have trouble staying in business.

I can't get it through gibonious's head, but I guess it's worth a try with you. It's a totality of the circumstances analysis. Activities or facts that may be innocent in isolation are to be considered in the light of everything else. Smoking might be innocent, by itself, but accompanied by a history of DUIs and marijuana possession and an obstinate refusal to stop when asked, it's suspicious. Totality of the circumstances. Get it?
post #2635 of 6095
I'm so glad I'm a middle aged, white, big and brawny, respectable looking, blue eyes, dress well, and drive a new Mercedes.

That's my biggest take away from this thread.
post #2636 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I'm so glad I'm a middle aged, white, big and brawny, respectable looking, blue eyes, dress well, and drive a new Mercedes.

That's my biggest take away from this thread.

You've taken a major step to becoming a SJW.
post #2637 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

You've taken a major step to becoming a SJW.

Nah, brah, just the opposite. I wallow in my privilege and cultivate it.
post #2638 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Nah, brah, just the opposite. I wallow in my privilege and cultivate it.

Can you send some my way?
post #2639 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Can you send some my way?

Privilege is non-transferable!
post #2640 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


I don't actually hear you saying that you can't cover up one scent with another. If that were the case Febreeze would have trouble staying in business.

Any college kid will attest to the fact that neither cigarettes nor air fresheners (nor chewing gum for that matter) cover up the scent of marijuana or alcohol.

I don't smoke anything besides an occasional cigar (Macanudo, Romeo y Julieta, Punch, etc.) but I do know that Black & Milds are popular with the young urban crowd. I might turn up my nose at blacks but I thought Tijuana Smalls with the plastic tip were oh so cool when I was 19. Bolo ties as well lol8[1].gif
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