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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 152

post #2266 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Great, meaningless apples-to-rattlesnakes statistical comparisons that don't add any helpful information will undoubtedly lend clarity to the discussion.

(Not directed at you, MrG, but at the "analysis". Or at least that part reflected in the sample, since I didn't read the underlying article.) Everybody knows Brits can't shoot for shit.

Perhaps "analysis" is the wrong word. The article is more of a data dump that attempts to put U.S. police violence into a global context.

Not sure you're right about the Brits, but the Finns are included and we definitely know they can shoot.
post #2267 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGimpy View Post

Not sure you're right about the Brits, but the Finns are included and we definitely know they can shoot.

smile.gif
post #2268 of 6095

Some reading about how the Turkish police conduct themselves in Amed/Diyarbakir, Batman, and other Kurdish cities may give you guys some insight into Ataturk's position. If he's actually Turkish that is...

post #2269 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Great, meaningless apples-to-rattlesnakes statistical comparisons that don't add any helpful information will undoubtedly lend clarity to the discussion.

(Not directed at you, MrG, but at the "analysis". Or at least that part reflected in the sample, since I didn't read the underlying article.) Everybody knows Brits can't shoot for shit.

They certainly make for jarring statistics, but I'd be willing to bet that much of it stems from our gun laws and gun culture. It seems almost inevitable that you're going to have more shootings by police when you have a lot of handguns in public circulation. It's not as simple as "our police are horrible." We could certainly reduce the number of shootings by police, but we're never going to the level of Germany et al just because police legitimately have to defend themselves against a lot of people with guns.
post #2270 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I don't know who said you should never draw your gun unless you're planning to fire it, since it's bad advice for anyone; but it clearly wasn't intended to apply to cops.


Right, because according to you cops are held to a lesser standard than ordinary civilians. Any civilian drawing a gun in these circumstances would be charged with menacing, if not outright assault. Pointing a firearm at someone can be attempted murder for a civilian.

It's like rule #1 in firearm safety courses. You do not point a firearm at something you do not intend to kill. It's not entirely clear in that video if he was pointing at the people running away, but it's still ridiculously over-the-top to draw down in that situation. I really don't understand the need to excuse cops from the same basic safety requirements as the rest of us.


EDIT -

Jesus Christ, it literally is Rule #1.
Quote:
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx
post #2271 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

Right, because according to you cops are held to a lesser standard than ordinary civilians. Any civilian drawing a gun in these circumstances would be charged with menacing, if not outright assault. Pointing a firearm at someone can be attempted murder for a civilian.

It's like rule #1 in firearm safety courses. You do not point a firearm at something you do not intend to kill. It's not entirely clear in that video if he was pointing at the people running away, but it's still ridiculously over-the-top to draw down in that situation. I really don't understand the need to excuse cops from the same basic safety requirements as the rest of us.


EDIT -

Jesus Christ, it literally is Rule #1.
http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

Granted, I am not familiar with what firearms training for police is, but it seems like practices which are proscribed for citizens, enthusiasts, and recreational gun owners should not necessarily be proscribed for a police officer. By your logic above it would seem that a police officer could never hold a suspect at gunpoint (and not shoot them) without being in the wrong.
post #2272 of 6095
Quote:
Any civilian drawing a gun in these circumstances would be charged with menacing, if not outright assault.

You seem to be confused about the difference between drawing and pointing.

And let's not forget that threatening someone, especially a police officer, with imminent physical violence is a crime in and of itself. If anyone was menacing anyone, it was those two adult-sized males who charged the cop while one gestured like he was drawing a weapon. Under the circumstances it was arguably aggravated assault.
post #2273 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


You seem to be confused about the difference between drawing and pointing.

 

You seem to be confused about the fact that these are high school kids. 

post #2274 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLantern View Post

Granted, I am not familiar with what firearms training for police is, but it seems like practices which are proscribed for citizens, enthusiasts, and recreational gun owners should not necessarily be proscribed for a police officer. By your logic above it would seem that a police officer could never hold a suspect at gunpoint (and not shoot them) without being in the wrong.


Right, because cops should be held to a lower level of firearms safety than you or I. That's by your logic.

You know cops are just people, right? They're not the super-cops or superheroes as shown on TV shows. In most places out of the city they get paid $25k a year to start. All local police are functionally retarded. Yet you want to trust them with the authority to kill you on sight. Think of the guy from your high school who was on the football team and was an ok player but didn't get a scholarship to college. He had to take summer school that one year, but managed to pull his grades up to a C+ and graduated anyway. The guy who brought the Pabst to every party. That's the guy you want to authorize to kill you with virtually no questions asked and the backing of a very powerful union. To kill you.

Fucking unbelievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

You seem to be confused about the difference between drawing and pointing.

And let's not forget that threatening someone, especially a police officer, with imminent physical violence is a crime in and of itself. If anyone was menacing anyone, it was those two adult-sized males who charged the cop while one gestured like he was drawing a weapon. Under the circumstances it was arguably aggravated assault.


Exactly, because they're somehow more important than the rest of us. You've revealed yourself, sir.
post #2275 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

You seem to be confused about the fact that these are high school kids. 

At a pool party.


I'm sure LOTS of high school kids pack guns in their swim trunks. Totally a realistic fear from the police.
post #2276 of 6095
There's some new video up of the Dillon Taylor killing from Utah (the white guy). It's pretty obvious that he's wearing headphones, and was basically unaware of the cops as they were walking up behind him screaming at him to get his hands up. Then he turns, takes a second to react, and reaches to his obviously sagging pants for whatever reason. That's when they shoot him, under the presumption that he could be going for a gun.

My read on this is not so much that the police should have been charged (since we have to enforce the laws that exist, not the ones we want), but that the current standards for what counts as a reasonable threat to police are absurdly low. "He had his hands near his waistband" should not be sufficient cause to fear for your life enough to shoot somebody. There are so many reasons that someone might have their hands there, and then plenty why they might move them (especially for the saggy pants demographic).

For context on the level of danger faced by Salt Lake City cops, no police officer has been killed by violence since 1982 as far as I can find. Despite this, I'm sure that the police are convinced that they're under a constant state of siege from a bloodthirsty population looking to put cops in the ground.

One source of the video
post #2277 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

At a pool party.


I'm sure LOTS of high school kids pack guns in their swim trunks. Totally a realistic fear from the police.

My swim trunks do hide a weapon of mass destruction.
post #2278 of 6095
I don't know what's going on with these kids, but when I was growing up the idea of taunting or menacing a cop was unheard of.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who base jump, or who hit rattlesnakes with sticks, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who ratchet up the drama with cops.

If cops are innately stupid and violent, then provoking a cop to attack is on the provoker, just as messing with a bear cub is likely to provoke mama bear.

If you want to rush at cops in the middle of chaos, you might get shot, you might not. Let's play Russian Roulette for justice.
post #2279 of 6095

You are all going to eat your words when that cop loses a suit with that girl that he abused.

post #2280 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

You are all going to eat your words when that cop loses a suit with that girl that he abused.
There won't be a verdict; there will be a settlement.
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