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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 150

post #2236 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Since I'm not a mind reader, and I assume you're not either, then hopefully we can agree that we can't know what was going through someone's head with absolute certainty. But at the same time, I hope you'd also accept that we can get often get pretty darn close under the right circumstances, based on what the person did, said, and perceived. It's also not hard to imagine a situation where we have absolutely no idea what someone was thinking based on the absence of any of those circumstances.

The quote you cited is somewhere in the middle. The cop could have been worried about being overwhelmed by the crowd, he could have been concerned about someone taking his gun -- or, on second viewing, concerned about a specific individual. All of those are inferences based on the evidence, with varying degrees of certainty. None are "pure speculation."

I can't see how the semantic discussion can really advance the ball, so I'm happy to use some other terminology if you prefer - especially since we run the danger in getting bogged down in legalistic jargon. That said, I'd disagree. Any suggestion as to what that cop was actually thinking is pure speculation on our point. We could agree or differ on whether or to what extent, in light of the perceivable circumstances, a person reasonable might leap to certain conclusions. But suggesting that "for all we know" he "might" have held certain beliefs is something more than rhetorical speculation.
post #2237 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I don't know who said you should never draw your gun unless you're planning to fire it, since it's bad advice for anyone; but it clearly wasn't intended to apply to cops.

And, again, the cop had nine hostile people surrounding him when he drew the gun. For all we know he only did it to make sure one of them didn't grab it.

So are you just going to ignore the fact no one was within five feet of his gun when he drew? I offer this up as to discern your state of mind concerning the issue.
post #2238 of 6082
It's a reasoned conclusion based on a review of all the evidence available to me. The fact that I conceded uncertainty is not an admission that the conclusion was speculation. If anything, you're the one getting legalistic by apparently employing a definition of speculation more akin to an evidentiary objection than the everyday meaning of the word.

Again, I was criticizing ethan for offering no argument or reasoning in support of his conclusions. You can't say the same about my post. There is no irony as you claim.
post #2239 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

There is no irony as you claim.
Well, that answers the question I posed, at least. smile.gif
post #2240 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It's a reasoned conclusion based on a review of all the evidence available to me.

If you go into the exercise with the standing assumption that there must be a reasonable explanation for his actions, of course. Oh, and I'm still waiting for some evidence for your claim that cops have their guns forcibly taken from them "all the time."


Pulling his gun is merely icing on the cake in any case. Do you want to state that his behavior before that point was justified, in comparison to his two peers who did not feel the need to violently detain anyone or scream profanity at them?
post #2241 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So are you just going to ignore the fact no one was within five feet of his gun when he drew? I offer this up as to discern your state of mind concerning the issue.

Just because someone wasn't behind him at the exact moment he drew the gun doesn't mean he wasn't concerned about it happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

If you go into the exercise with the standing assumption that there must be a reasonable explanation for his actions, of course.
It's the conclusion that's reasoned, as opposed to just asserted. There's no presumption about reasonableness.

Though if you want to be overly precise, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that my methodology works -- something in the video evidences his motivations, unless you think the cop was sleepwalking or otherwise entirely unaware of his circumstances. That'd be pretty close to pure speculation.
Quote:
Pulling his gun is merely icing on the cake in any case.

I actually agree -- it appeared to be justified based on the circumstances, and not particularly important since he didn't shoot anyone or even really point the gun at them. I assumed the point of the video was the arrest of the girl and paid more attention to that.
Quote:
Do you want to state that his behavior before that point was justified, in comparison to his two peers who did not feel the need to violently detain anyone or scream profanity at them?

Considering that he's the one who sees the kids trying to sneak away while the other cops are twiddling their thumbs, yeah. He does seem to be pissed, but he also seems to be trying to impart on them the seriousness of the situation and maintain control when there were three cops and fifty or so kids. As you said earlier, those kids' inclination is to scatter in every direction, and not much the cops could do about it.
post #2242 of 6082
Plessy vs. Ferguson.
post #2243 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

That'd be pretty close to pure speculation.

Hrmmmm.
Quote:
Considering that he's the one who sees the kids trying to sneak away while the other cops are twiddling their thumbs, yeah. He does seem to be pissed, but he also seems to be trying to impart on them the seriousness of the situation and maintain control when there were three cops and fifty or so kids. As you said earlier, those kids' inclination is to scatter in every direction, and not much the cops could do about it.

It would have been an honest to God tragedy if they would have gotten away. Those other cops, total fucking slackers for actually talking to people and not just whipping ass like good little soldiers bored.gif
post #2244 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Just because someone wasn't behind him at the exact moment he drew the gun doesn't mean he wasn't concerned about it happening.

So basically merely being in the presence of other people any cop is justified in drawing as someone might be about to take their gun at any moment...
post #2245 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So basically merely being in the presence of other people any cop is justified in drawing as someone might be about to take their gun at any moment...

Generally not, but it's a bit different when there's about ten of them and they've all just charged at you at once.
post #2246 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Generally not, but it's a bit different when there's about ten of them and they've all just charged at you at once.

That sounds great except the video shows they were running away from him when he drew and they were several feet away.
post #2247 of 6082
I believe his eyes face forward and that he has a limited field of view, like most people -- though I'm not completely sure, it's not "pure speculation" to conclude with some certainty that he can't see in three hundred and sixty degrees at once. In fact, you can see him checking his rear as he's starting to draw the gun and chase after Mr. Hands-in-Pants.

Not only does the cop not have perfect information, but he's in a very stressful situation and has no time to think about what he should do. It's reasonable not to be completely reasonable under such circumstances, if that makes sense.
post #2248 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I believe his eyes face forward and that he has a limited field of view, like most people -- though I'm not completely sure, it's not "pure speculation" to conclude with some certainty that he can't see in three hundred and sixty degrees at once. In fact, you can see him checking his rear as he's starting to draw the gun and chase after Mr. Hands-in-Pants.

Not only does the cop not have perfect information, but he's in a very stressful situation and has no time to think about what he should do. It's reasonable not to be completely reasonable under such circumstances, if that makes sense.

So then in any stressful situation, where civilians are present, a LEO is justified in drawing?

You just give these assholes such broad fucking excuses with broad fucking powers. It's really amazing.
post #2249 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

he's in a very stressful situation

 

of his own creation. He's in McKinney, Texas not Fallujah. 

post #2250 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

of his own creation. He's in McKinney, Texas not Fallujah. 

American Sniper, America Edition.
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