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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 116

post #1726 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

- David Brooks.

Ah, David Brooks. The gift that keeps on giving.
post #1727 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

- David Brooks.

Someone should tell David Brooks that we're planning on putting cameras on the cops in 2015, not in 1950s Mayberry. If there were any community bond with the police, we wouldn't be in this situation.



In his defense, that line was in an article were he (reluctantly) supports body cameras.
post #1728 of 6095
Uh why not just train cops not to use force when it's not absolutely necessary.

And convict the fuck out of them if they do.

Like it or not, positions of perceived power sometimes attract people who abuse it. You have to stamp that shit out.
post #1729 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/13/maryland-parents-panic-when-their-kids-a#comment


Yup. Pigs doing what they do best. Kidnapping children and terrorizing parents. It takes a village.

All your children are belong to us.

It is mind boggling how much power and how little accountability CPS has.
post #1730 of 6095

Perhaps the LEO was a bit overzealous here,

http://heavy.com/news/2015/04/michael-rapiejko-marana-tucson-arizona-police-officer-video-mario-valencia-charged-investigation-cleared-wrongdoing-nypd-hit-ran-over-suspect-car/

The suspect, Mario Valencia, was armed with a rifle and was wanted in connection with the armed robbery of a convenience store, an arson at a church, a home invasion and a car theft, CNN reported. The rifle he was carrying had been stolen from a Walmart, police said. All those alleged crimes occurred earlier in the day on Feb. 19, not long before Valencia was struck by Rapiejko’s crusier. He had led police from Marana to Tucson, where he was run down by Rapiejko from behind while walking on a sidewalk.

Maybe, since the incident happened in Arizona, Cowboy stuff is accepted and encouraged.

PS:The victim's Attorney is suing of course, this being the USA. I guess the victim can use any recovered funds for his commissary in Prison. He's facing many charges.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/04/michael-rapiejko-marana-tucson-arizona-police-officer-video-mario-valencia-charged-investigation-cleared-wrongdoing-nypd-hit-ran-over-suspect-car/

The Suspect’s Attorney Calls Rapiejko’s Maneuver ‘Excessive Force’
A screenshot from the dash cam video shows the moment before Officer Michael Rapiejko intentionally struck an armed suspect, Mario Valencia, with his car.
A screenshot from the dash cam video shows the moment before Officer Michael Rapiejko intentionally struck an armed suspect, Mario Valencia, with his car.

Valencia’s attorney, Michelle Cohen-Metzger, disagreed with the Tucson chief’s take on the situation, telling CNN:

Everything in the video seems to point towards an obvious excessive use of force. It is miraculous that my client isn’t dead. I find it ludicrous to say that we’re saving this man’s life whose suicidal by almost killing him.

She said the officers didn’t try to de-escalate a situation involving a man who was “clearly suicidal, clearly in crisis,” according to CNN.

“My client’s back was turned and the officer drove right into him,” she told CNN. “It isn’t that dissimilar to a police officer shooting a fleeing suspect in the back.”


How do all of you feel on this case? I think the the PO clearly did use too much force and that he was hardly "saving the perp's life". But I also think the Perp was an extreme POS and I wouldn't give him a dime if I were on a Jury. Call it a sort of Juror Negation.
Edited by rnoldh - 4/14/15 at 11:23pm
post #1731 of 6095
You heard the last line of the video. "All officers are ok." Nothing else matters.
post #1732 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Uh why not just train cops not to use force when it's not absolutely necessary.

And convict the fuck out of them if they do.

Like it or not, positions of perceived power sometimes attract people who abuse it. You have to stamp that shit out.

That's always going to be ambiguous, and whether or not it was absolutely necessary will be a decision that always goes in favor of the LEO. Maybe that could change through public pressure. In the mean time, based on all of these videos I would suggest not resisting arrest or fighting with police if you are approached by them. That seems to be the short-term solution to getting shot.
Edited by suited - 4/15/15 at 6:05am
post #1733 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

That's always going to be ambiguous, and whether or not it was absolutely necessary will be a decision that always goes in favor of the LEO. Maybe that could change through public pressure. In the mean time, based on all of these videos I would suggest not resisting arrest or fighting with police if you are approached by them. That seems to be the short-term solution to not getting shot.

That is so backwards, i'm not even sure if you're serious.

As for the ambiguity, that's why I'm suggesting the training. In all of these cases shooting the suspect has not been anywhere near a necessity. It's hard for me to believe that the message that they've been drilled in is to not use force except when absolutely necessary.
post #1734 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

That is so backwards, i'm not even sure if you're serious.

Of course it's backwards, that's why I said "in the mean time." Until these abuses are eradicated, I'm simply suggesting not resisting arrest or fighting with a police officer. That seems like a pretty surefire way to guarantee that you aren't shot. Which part of that do you disagree with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

As for the ambiguity, that's why I'm suggesting the training. In all of these cases shooting the suspect has not been anywhere near a necessity. It's hard for me to believe that the message that they've been drilled in is to not use force except when absolutely necessary.

Are you under the impression that current LEO training encourages shooting suspects when it's "not anywhere near a necessity"?
post #1735 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

Are you under the impression that current LEO training encourages shooting suspects when it's "not anywhere near a necessity"?
There's actually a lot of ways that police training, protocol, and culture leads to unnecessary shootings.

Good discussion about this:
http://www.npr.org/2015/04/10/398824607/police-involved-shootings-highlight-problem-with-law-enforcement-culture

The author (a former cop) makes the point that cops receive training that highlights the need for vigilance, to avoid threats from the community. The problem is that it grossly overstates their actual risk, and leads to them thinking that their community is hostile territory. So it makes them twitchy, especially younger and less seasoned cops. If you genuinely think the community is likely to try to hurt you, suddenly that 14 year old with an Airsoft gun is processed automatically as a real threat first and you may end up shooting him rather than taking a pretty minor risk and investigating the situation.

There's also the culture of demanding and expecting instant compliance. One of the take home points from a lot of these police incident videos is that ANY hesitancy constitutes resisting. If you're not particularly enthusiastic about getting tossed to the ground and cuffed, you are resisting, and that will prompt force. They're not going to talk to you and try to convince you to cooperate.

Couple other things I've mentioned before in this thread:

Engaging suspects much more closely than necessary. Suicide by cop is a good example, and an almost uniquely American issue. Our policies force cops to engage "dangerous" suspects, and the situation escalates inevitably until the suspect is killed. In the suicide by cop cases, it's usually known that the suspect isn't a real threat to anyone else, they just do enough to force the issue. In non-suicide situations (esp. with other mentally ill types), the danger is created when the police swarm in and escalate the tension of the situation.

No-knock raids, and paramilitary style raids in general. These are used WAY more often than they used to, and far more often than necessary. Lots of negative consequences here (more militarized police force), but it absolutely results in more accidental shootings because you're forcing snap decisions in a very stressful and automatically violence situation.
post #1736 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

Of course it's backwards, that's why I said "in the mean time." Until these abuses are eradicated, I'm simply suggesting not resisting arrest or fighting with a police officer. That seems like a pretty surefire way to guarantee that you aren't shot. Which part of that do you disagree with?


Lol, "in the mean time." The only way to eradicate these abuses is to reduce the laws and fire the cops. There is no other "in the mean time."

Quote:
Are you under the impression that current LEO training encourages shooting suspects when it's "not anywhere near a necessity"?

Yes, that is exactly what they are trained to do. They are trained to shoot anytime they have an opportunity to do so.
post #1737 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

3. Based on FBI reports on shootings by cop, and inferences from incarceration rates and incidents of cop encounters, whites who run or fight are more likely to be shot than blacks who run or fight.

I was looking into this a bit, and came across an interesting article. Among the interesting points,
Quote:
You know who dies in the most population-dense areas? Black men. You know who dies in the least population dense areas? Mentally ill men. It's not to say there aren't dangerous and desperate criminals killed across the line. But African-Americans and the mentally ill people make up a huge percentage of people killed by police.

Makes sense. Along with things like suicide by cop, we've also criminalized homelessness and done a lot to push the mentally ill out onto the street. The combination leads to a lot of encounters between the cops and the mentally ill. Lots of encounters = more dead people.

The linked website also points out that black men are ~4x more likely to be killed by police than whites. How many of them are actually justified (attacks on officers, etc) isn't included in there, so who knows. It also notes that the rates are hugely variable, with some areas having 10x rates of shootings.

The bigger point is that it's either tragically incompetent or deliberate (my vote would be deliberate) that the government doesn't require any kind of standardized logging of police shootings. The state monopoly of force is one of the highest obligation that the government has, and we're seeing it utilized on a fairly wide scale (way more than any other First World country) and we're not even being told the details.


Going back to my point to Piob about the FBI database, given the voluntary reporting of the FBI database and the hugely variable local statistics on police shooting, we really shouldn't rely on the FBI numbers to make any conclusions about national patterns. It would be nice if journalists were stepping in to perform that role, but seemingly not.
post #1738 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

There's actually a lot of ways that police training, protocol, and culture leads to unnecessary shootings.

Good discussion about this:
http://www.npr.org/2015/04/10/398824607/police-involved-shootings-highlight-problem-with-law-enforcement-culture
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The author (a former cop) makes the point that cops receive training that highlights the need for vigilance, to avoid threats from the community. The problem is that it grossly overstates their actual risk, and leads to them thinking that their community is hostile territory. So it makes them twitchy, especially younger and less seasoned cops. If you genuinely think the community is likely to try to hurt you, suddenly that 14 year old with an Airsoft gun is processed automatically as a real threat first and you may end up shooting him rather than taking a pretty minor risk and investigating the situation.

There's also the culture of demanding and expecting instant compliance. One of the take home points from a lot of these police incident videos is that ANY hesitancy constitutes resisting. If you're not particularly enthusiastic about getting tossed to the ground and cuffed, you are resisting, and that will prompt force. They're not going to talk to you and try to convince you to cooperate.

Couple other things I've mentioned before in this thread:

Engaging suspects much more closely than necessary. Suicide by cop is a good example, and an almost uniquely American issue. Our policies force cops to engage "dangerous" suspects, and the situation escalates inevitably until the suspect is killed. In the suicide by cop cases, it's usually known that the suspect isn't a real threat to anyone else, they just do enough to force the issue. In non-suicide situations (esp. with other mentally ill types), the danger is created when the police swarm in and escalate the tension of the situation.

No-knock raids, and paramilitary style raids in general. These are used WAY more often than they used to, and far more often than necessary. Lots of negative consequences here (more militarized police force), but it absolutely results in more accidental shootings because you're forcing snap decisions in a very stressful and automatically violence situation
.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but my point is that a cultural change within the profession, assuming this is possible, will take a long time. Whether it's because human nature encourages everyone to abuse power when given power, or if this profession attracts people that are predisposed to abusing power (or a combination thereof), it's going to exist on some level regardless of how successful the transition in training is. Because of that, there are things anyone can do that will prevent you from being shot. I don't think that embracing these two ideas at once is too much to ask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

They are trained to shoot anytime they have an opportunity to do so.

I haven't had exposure to major metropolitan police forces, but I would say that does not jive with the conversations I've had with current and former LEOs.
post #1739 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

I haven't had exposure to major metropolitan police forces, but I would say that does not jive with the conversations I've had with current and former LEOs.

Yeah, they're going to admit the truth to you. Rule 1 is you do not talk about murdering civilians.
post #1740 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but my point is that a cultural change within the profession, assuming this is possible, will take a long time. Whether it's because human nature encourages everyone to abuse power when given power, or if this profession attracts people that are predisposed to abusing power (or a combination thereof), it's going to exist on some level regardless of how successful the transition in training is. Because of that, there are things anyone can do that will prevent you from being shot. I don't think that embracing these two ideas at once is too much to ask.

There's the "shit I don't want to get shot, how do I accomplish that" side of the conversation, and then there's the larger societal question. The first one is not so hard (Step 1: be white and not crazy), but the second is huge and has wide reaching consequences past simply whether someone gets killed or not. Aggressively/overly active policing, lack of respect for civilians (hell, even the fact that police don't consider themselves "civilians" anymore), police militarization, it all really builds a wall between one of the most visible and active parts of government and the citizens of the country.

We're not going to be able to come in and change the culture of police departments immediately, but we can start with policies and that will start to work down into the culture. Drug war, militarization, no-knock raids, "broken windows" policing theory, all that kind of stuff starts at the top. The big stuff like the interaction between black cities and police departments is going to be much harder to address.
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