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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 71

post #1051 of 6082
The Washington Post did a very extensive piece on asset forfeiture. They had 48 examples of cases where the dogs alerted to drugs, but none was found and cash was confiscated anyway. Some other examples where the cop's judgement on the road was deemed enough to seize the money, although fewer of those held up in court. One guy had two grand confiscated because the cop was convinced he was going to buy drugs because he was "nervous" and didn't have enough baggage with him to be plausibly on a long distance trip.
post #1052 of 6082
It's hard to respond to generalized claims. But of course there has been abuse of forfeitures like every other law enforcement activity. It'd be surprising if there wasn't given that there's something like 750,000 cops running around out there.

Many forfeiture cases aren't forfeitures at all but disclaimers. Cop asks so and so if he has money in the car. He says no. There's probable cause or permission for a search and money is found. If it's not your money, then you don't want it, right? No, he says, and off it goes.
post #1053 of 6082
Foster kid pepper sprayed in his own home after neighbor sees him enter through the door without force--cops see pictures of white people and don't believe he lives there.

http://abc11.com/340724/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The Washington Post did a very extensive piece on asset forfeiture. They had 48 examples of cases where the dogs alerted to drugs, but none was found and cash was confiscated anyway. Some other examples where the cop's judgement on the road was deemed enough to seize the money, although fewer of those held up in court. One guy had two grand confiscated because the cop was convinced he was going to buy drugs because he was "nervous" and didn't have enough baggage with him to be plausibly on a long distance trip.

The best are the examples where the dog alerts when it is conveniently obscured from the view of the squad car's dash cam.
post #1054 of 6082
Aggressive policing and stiff jail terms have made the country safer than it once was. New York used to look dystopic (or dystopian?).

Lax or lazy policing and lax jail terms lead to muggings, shootings, and the rotating door of hoodlums.

Is there an optimum point between the two? A golden mean? Probably, but human nature seems to drive such things in pendulum-like cycles to the extremes.
post #1055 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It's hard to respond to generalized claims. But of course there has been abuse of forfeitures like every other law enforcement activity. It'd be surprising if there wasn't given that there's something like 750,000 cops running around out there.

We know the police are going to abuse it, particularly when they can funnel the money into their own pockets. We know they do abuse it. So why is anyone ok with giving them the power to make forfeitures without significantly increased judicial involvement? Nobody should have to prove why they were driving around with a bag full of money unless there's actual compelling evidence (evaluated by a judge, not a cop) that there's real suspicion behind the money. Burden of proof needs to shift substantially towards the police.
post #1056 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

Foster kid pepper sprayed in his own home after neighbor sees him enter through the door without force--cops see pictures of white people and don't believe he lives there.

http://abc11.com/340724/
The best are the examples where the dog alerts when it is conveniently obscured from the view of the squad car's dash cam.

If you read the Post article, they've got a really nice system down for shaking people down. Profile somebody, pull them over for a convenient traffic violation, make them nervous enough to count as cause, try to badger them into disclosing any cash in the car. Say they're free to go but strongly dissuade them from leaving until the drug dogs show up. Have the dog hit on whatever, then take their stuff. Once they've got it, it often costs too much to even fight for the amount taken. Even if it's worth it, you're out lawyers fees and whatever original purpose you had for the money is probably long gone.

Some of the cases, they even took the money out of people's wallets. "You've got a debit card, you can buy gas without cash."


The articles in question:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/?hpid=z3
post #1057 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It's hard to respond to generalized claims. But of course there has been abuse of forfeitures like every other law enforcement activity. It'd be surprising if there wasn't given that there's something like 750,000 cops running around out there.

Many forfeiture cases aren't forfeitures at all but disclaimers. Cop asks so and so if he has money in the car. He says no. There's probable cause or permission for a search and money is found. If it's not your money, then you don't want it, right? No, he says, and off it goes.

That is horseshit. Provide 5 cites where that happened.
post #1058 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

That is horseshit. Provide 5 cites where that happened.

I think it's a pretty routine tactic. They try to pressure people to give up the money in exchange for "not getting in more trouble." Same way they convince people to plead guilty to get to home tonight, even for shit they didn't do.
Quote:
“I’m just going to, basically, have you wait here,” Frye told Anderson.

The dog arrived and the handler said it indicated the presence of drugs. But when they searched the car, none was found. They did find money: $25,180.

Frye handcuffed Anderson and told him he was placing him under arrest.

“In Nebraska, drug currency is illegal,” Frye said. “Let me tell you something, I’ve seized millions out here. When I say that, I mean millions. . . . This is what I do.”

Frye suggested to Anderson that he might not have been aware of the money in his vehicle and began pressing him to sign a waiver relinquishing the cash, mentioning it at least five times over the next hour, the video shows.

“You’re going to be given an opportunity to disclaim the currency,” Frye told Anderson. “To sign a form that says, ‘That is not my money. I don’t know anything about it. I don’t want to know anything about it. I don’t want to come back to court.’ ”


Frye said that unless the driver agreed to give up the money, a prosecutor would “want to charge” him with a crime, “so that means you’ll go to jail.”

An hour and six minutes into the stop, Frye read Anderson his Miranda rights.

Anderson, who told Frye he worked as a self-employed debt counselor, said the money was not illicit and he was carrying it to pay off a gambling debt. He would later say it was from investors and meant to buy silver bullion and coins. More than two hours after the stop had begun, he finally agreed to give up the cash and Frye let him go. Now Anderson has gone to court to get the money back, saying he signed the waiver and mentioned the gambling debt only because he felt intimidated by Frye.


The Post article has a number of cases where the police managed to convince somebody who spoke poor English to agree to such terms.
post #1059 of 6082
Where was the query "if it's not your money then you don't want it?" THATS not legal grounds to seize money. Even cops wouldn't do that. Period. Full stop.
post #1060 of 6082
Granted they have to sign a form, but that's not too different from the what Ataturk said. "Disclaim the money, and you get to go home." Maybe I'm missing the distinction you're looking for.


Sure as hell doesn't make it acceptable, but it is somewhat distinct from forfeiture.
post #1061 of 6082
There is no such form. You are misinformed.

There are forms to sign later, perhaps as part of a plea that defendant will give up the property seized in exchange for dropping charges, but that's after charges were filed. It absolutely does not happen shortly after the bullshit traffic stop. And the cops would never phrase it that way. They're dumb, but not retarded.
post #1062 of 6082
If the person in possession disclaims ownership of the property they can still file the forfeiture against the property itself (i.e., in rem). You don't have to know who owns something to forfeit it.
post #1063 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

There is no such form. You are misinformed.

There are forms to sign later, perhaps as part of a plea that defendant will give up the property seized in exchange for dropping charges, but that's after charges were filed. It absolutely does not happen shortly after the bullshit traffic stop. And the cops would never phrase it that way. They're dumb, but not retarded.

The thing I posted is a literal quote from a video of the stop in question, so maybe you can explain which part you're objecting to. The officer said exactly those things. The video is on the link I posted if you want to watch it.

Alternatively, what's the legal distinction between that interaction and what Ataturk brought up?
post #1064 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

If the person in possession disclaims ownership of the property they can still file the forfeiture against the property itself (i.e., in rem). You don't have to know who owns something to forfeit it.

You have to prove it is from an illegal transaction. I guess it's possible you could do that without proving ownership but I've never seen it.
post #1065 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The thing I posted is a literal quote from a video of the stop in question, so maybe you can explain which part you're objecting to. The officer said exactly those things. The video is on the link I posted if you want to watch it.

Alternatively, what's the legal distinction between that interaction and what Ataturk brought up?

Where's the link, there are 700 links here. And as I've repeatedly stated, everything cops tell you is a lie. There is no form.
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