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'iGent Myths Busted!' - Page 17

post #241 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Satire. Great read. I think you'd enjoy it. You have to be acquainted enough with the subject to get the humor. Beginners will be bewildered. Idiots will take it literally.

It is quite humorous, was not expecting it when I first read it.

Agreed that it's more advanced reading though.

Dressing the Man is great--haven't looked at Clothes and the Man though. Will have to pick it up one of these days.
post #242 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

if you abridge it, you will fuck up all the paragraph symetry, word patterns and numerology, which are the only ways to access the secret teaching!

Wait, what??? Is that where you reveal the ultimate evolution of CBD is polo-and-khaki-based business casual?
post #243 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

MIke, we should do an abridged, fully illustrated version of your book. We can call it something like "The Prince Goes to Work!" and use WAYWRN photos as examples. I volunteer to be your editor.

Sign me up for a pre-order.
post #244 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Wait, what??? Is that where you reveal the ultimate evolution of CBD is polo-and-khaki-based business casual?

You missed that part?
post #245 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

What I object to in your previous comment is that a historical basis frees you from this problem. For reasons having to do with interpretation, perspective, values, and fallibility, it does not.

The question of whether something was accepted in the past is a much easiler question.

Or, more specifically, a statement - sufficiently qualified - about something historical acceptability can be true or false.

That is not a feature that statements about beauty / tastefulness / etc share.
post #246 of 301
Manton and Foo should annotate an old Sears catalog. Perhaps that way the two fora might be reunited and peace restored.
post #247 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

The question of whether something was accepted in the past is a much easiler question.

Or, more specifically, a statement - sufficiently qualified - about something historical acceptability can be true or false.

That is not a feature that statements about beauty / tastefulness / etc share.

Again, the lessons to be learned from history must be derived and interpreted, just as those from any other basis. We don't just copy what people did at a certain time. We pick and choose, and think about what to apply based on other considerations. As Sator's counter-examples show, you can always find something that was acceptable at one point that breaks any given rule, no matter how commonly accepted that rule is today.
post #248 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Satire. Great read. I think you'd enjoy it. You have to be acquainted enough with the subject to get the humor. Beginners will be bewildered. Idiots will take it literally.

I'll have to dig out my old Isaiah Berlin book, reacquaint myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

if you abridge it, you will fuck up all the paragraph symetry, word patterns and numerology, which are the only ways to access the secret teaching!

Given this, who,would you recommend Dan Brown, Darth Strauss, Dr Seuss?
post #249 of 301
The Flusser books are good. Those interested may be able to find something in the Books on Menswear thread in my sig.

Also, I really recommend watching old movies if you're interested in fashions of the times. Obviously movies aren't completely representative of what real people wore, but you get an idea.

I suggest His Girl Friday as a lot of it's set in an office. Be somewhat careful with Cary Grant's early years though, he did experiment quite a bit. I believe it was in The Awful Truth that he worse french cuffs on a button down shirt.

All About Eve is another good one to watch, as it's got some lounge suit and tie dinner scenes, some black tie, and some white tie even. And some more casual tweed jacket/odd trouser type scenes. Also, it's got Marilyn Monroe in her first speaking part, if the rest isn't enough to grab you.
post #250 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Again, the lessons to be learned from history must be derived and interpreted, just as those from any other basis. We don't just copy what people did at a certain time. We pick and choose, and think about what to apply based on other considerations. As Sator's counter-examples show, you can always find something that was acceptable at one point that breaks any given rule, no matter how commonly accepted that rule is today.

The point you're making doesn't have any bearing on my point. And this particular confusion on your part is what leads to so much typing and so little denouement.

So, assuming that you care about your carpal tunnels...

What I'm saying is that, in order for a discussion to be even mildly worthwhile, you have to figure out what sort of discussion it is because that determines what types of arguments make sense.

When Manton talks about history, he does so to demonstrate what was acceptable (with the implication that it has some bearing on what is / ought to be acceptable now). And those are the sorts of discussions where you can point to an established record and - more nearly - use words like correct / incorrect.

When you talk about history, you do so merely as an illustration of preferences / opinions you hold for a-historical reasons. That's not the sort of thing that you can really argue. And it's misplaced to talk about your interpretation of what's good / bad as being factually accurate or not.


Not that you care, but I agree with your approach and think that placing too great an emphasis on the weight of precendent leads to suboptimal results in most regards.

I'm talking about how we should go about having the diferent sorts of discussions that quickly get all jumbled up.
post #251 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Again, the lessons to be learned from history must be derived and interpreted, just as those from any other basis. We don't just copy what people did at a certain time. We pick and choose, and think about what to apply based on other considerations.As Sator's counter-examples show, you can always find something that was acceptable at one point that breaks any given rulee, no matter how commonly accepted that rule is today.
What he does is worse than that. Often his "counter-proofs" are not things that were ever widely acceptable, just things done as one-offs that he cites as "proof" that the rule was always bunk. E.g., I love the old AA illustrations. Well, one famous one shows a DJ with brass buttons. Another shows white tie with patent leather brogues. I doubt either of those were even worn IRL. Or take the "mess jacket," which was a real fad in 1936 but flamed out within a year and was ridiculed even when it was worn. Worse, he often likes to pull examples from low-brow sources like andAmerican mail order catalouge showing a notch DJ to "prove" than on Savile Row there never was a tradition aganist notched DJs.

But worst of all is his insistence that absense of his favored kind of evidence equals evidence of absense.
post #252 of 301
Thread Starter 
I really wish they'd publish new editions of Esquire's Encyclopedia and Men In Style. I still haven't read the two and I'm sure both would sell well with proper marketing. The former would educate and work as reference, the latter would suit as eye candy inspiration.
post #253 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

The Flusser books are good. Those interested may be able to find something in the Books on Menswear thread in my sig.

Also, I really recommend watching old movies if you're interested in fashions of the times. Obviously movies aren't completely representative of what real people wore, but you get an idea.

I suggest His Girl Friday as a lot of it's set in an office. Be somewhat careful with Cary Grant's early years though, he did experiment quite a bit. I believe it was in The Awful Truth that he worse french cuffs on a button down shirt.

All About Eve is another good one to watch, as it's got some lounge suit and tie dinner scenes, some black tie, and some white tie even. And some more casual tweed jacket/odd trouser type scenes. Also, it's got Marilyn Monroe in her first speaking part, if the rest isn't enough to grab you.

Quite a comprehensive list there.

Nice to see Laver on it

Chenoune is also good and bloody expensive too.
post #254 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

The Flusser books are good. Those interested may be able to find something in the Books on Menswear thread in my sig.

Also, I really recommend watching old movies if you're interested in fashions of the times. Obviously movies aren't completely representative of what real people wore, but you get an idea.

I suggest His Girl Friday as a lot of it's set in an office. Be somewhat careful with Cary Grant's early years though, he did experiment quite a bit. I believe it was in The Awful Truth that he worse french cuffs on a button down shirt.

All About Eve is another good one to watch, as it's got some lounge suit and tie dinner scenes, some black tie, and some white tie even. And some more casual tweed jacket/odd trouser type scenes. Also, it's got Marilyn Monroe in her first speaking part, if the rest isn't enough to grab you.
Notorious is excellent. Apart from the obvious (Grant), pay attention to the CIA brass for some State trad and the DB on the young Argentine intelligence operative (he just pops in for a minute).
post #255 of 301
The best thing about being my age is that I was a 'Gent' long before there was an 'i' .... before the 'i' was even a twinkle in Gore's eye.
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