Bespoke Single Button Peak Lapel - Questions on Belly and Button point - Page 3

Originally Posted by Longmorn 

Mafoo - I understand your points, and appreciate your effort in writing. I understand your point about the fundamental structural components and the balance between them and don't disagree. I also agree with you about asking an Italian tailor to emulate an English style or vice versa. You seem to be advocating an approach that involves placing oneself entirely in the hands of the tailor.

However...I work with Field because he's an English tailor, and the level of variation I'm thinking about is well within the bounds of that aesthetic lexicon. For example, I can see a number of differences between the two Huntsman coats I posted that, while subtle, add up to quite a big difference in overall impression, IMO. These include the width of the lapels, the button point in relation to the narrowest point of the waist, the position of the pockets, and the degree to which the lapels conform to a consistent curve to the button point (top) or curve in more sharply at an inflection point (bottom) (although this may be an artifact of buttoned vs unbuttoned).

I don't intend to be doctrinaire or overly dictatorial with Field, as I have every confidence in his ability to deliver a great suit (and evidence to that fact hanging in my closet). But I do want to be able to articulate the aesthetic concept I'm after in a way that is accurate and meaningful. Perhaps belly is not the right metric - perhaps it's the overall shape of the lapel. 

In any case, thanks.

Originally Posted by mafoofan 

I respect where Chris is coming from, as he's as excellent a tailor as any, but disagree very strongly with him on his advice--coming from a client point-of-view. Your tailor may be willing to study a million photos with you, but what will he walk away with exactly? You were looking at X, he thought he was looking at X, but he was really looking at Y. You may spend a million hours on Styleforum learning to better articulate what you want, but how will he interpret it and then execute it? What if he's never done the thing you're asking for? What if it looks easier than it really is? Everything can go badly very quickly. Then, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Originally Posted by Despos 

Show your tailor a picture of lapels you like and lapels you don't like and then step back. Be specific about what you like and don't like. Don't expect him to see the same thing you see without explaining it to him.

Originally Posted by Despos 


Foo, your reading skills are poor and comprehension level low.

After a client shows a picture to me I ask them to draw a picture as well. Have found that the vocabulary clients use mean something different to them than it may mean to me.

Originally Posted by Despos 

Did you say that your tailor may not see what you see in pictures and this could cause a disparity of understanding?

Originally Posted by recondite 

The buttoning point should be your natural waist, unless you want a fashionable garment that will look dated and become costume in the next 18 months. Today's buttoning point fashion is hideously high and looks ill fitted, not fashionable or stylish to my eye.

The width of peak lapels should be determined by first the distance between edge of the should and the neck of the wearer and secondly by the height of the gorge, which itself is aesthetic and determined by the current fashion, your tailor, your tastes, or a combination of all three. Typically the lower the gorge, the narrower the peak lapel. The peak lapel cuts from most of what was popular in the 30's and 40's, are still aesthetically pleasing today. Even some of the 1980's to mid-1990's cuts look great if they avoided such anachronisms as overly padded shoulders, etc. In fact some of the best 1990's cuts look like they came right out of a 1940's pattern book, and hence timeless.

The curve is aesthetic and will be determined last as it is a function of both the buttoning point and gorge height, such that a double breasted cut will look best with a different curve than a SB cut. Spoo's lapels, as pictured above, might look better on a DB cut for instance.

All of the Paul Stuart and Phineas Cole jackets pictured above are already looking a bit dated for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by mafoofan 


Not just, no. I was quite explicit that, no matter how hard you try to convey (through whatever means--pictures, words, etc.) and no matter how hard your tailor is willing to listen, at the end of the day, the message sent plus the resulting execution are unlikely to be what you hoped for when asking your tailor to do something different from what is ingrained in his practice or taste. You are a world-class tailor and one of the best in this country, yet you could not replicate exactly what another tailor does. Neither could another perfectly duplicate your work. It's not that you don't possess the technical know-how, but because of everything from the air you breathe, to the stylistic sensibilities embedded in you, to the tastes of your clientele, which you have naturally acclimated to in time and which reinforce your own taste. You admirably point out that you are always learning. Well, that couldn't be true if certain things didn't remain foreign to you. That must be true of all tailors. And learning has a curve.

In this case, we are talking about a stylistic feature (lapel belly) that connects to yet other aesthetic properties, and also structural, functional considerations. Hence, it is a very involved adjustment--certainly more that most clients are aware of. So, even if your tailor is able to give you exactly the belly you want, the connecting components (which you never thought to specify) may turn it into a different animal. My framed patch pockets are a good example. They are not what I expected, yet certainly what I asked for. The difference is that I knew that was the case and didn't fool myself into believing I was going to get a specific thing. Lapel belly is a much more nuanced, connected detail.

Other more experienced bespoke clients have shared the same approach and attitude here: you need to let go of the fantasy that you can design via your tailor. To the extent you try, like with my coat, you accept increasingly greater risk.

The flaw in your response is you think the OP wants field to duplicate a certain look. You read something into his question that isn't there and his response here verifies the point. He is asking for direction on the effects of lapel shapes and button stance so he can discuss it with his tailor. He wants some insight to gain understanding.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Longmorn 


There has been some very helpful advice in this thread, and some interesting discussion of how the proportions and shape of the lapel should link to other aspects of the cut and construction of the coat. I really wish we could stick to that.

However, you (and to a lesser extent others) seem to be insistent on cautioning me against something I would never do - that is, instruct Field as to precisely how the coat should be constructed. I don't think anything in my initial post implied that this is my approach, and I've clarified that I'm looking to educate myself for a dialogue with my tailor about the overall vision for the coat, not micromanagement of a professional (him) by an amateur (me). You seem borderline opposed to that sort of dialogue, which is fine if odd IMO. But don't presume that I am trying to 'design via [my] tailor' as this is simply not the case. 

Originally Posted by Longmorn 

Advice and examples would be greatly appreciated (especially from RSS, who based on reading previous threads seems to have a stable full of bespoke SB peak lapel suits).

Originally Posted by add911_11 

It will be very lucky to get your prefect bespoke first time.