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Best bespoke commission ever? I think so. *** PICTURES ADDED FOR THOSE LACKING IMAGINATION - Page 23

post #331 of 436
Thread Starter 
I'm not concerned with what Taub intends to do. It's a question of whether the result is good or bad, and by what measure. As a piece of avant garde fashion, I have trouble understanding the value of what we've seen: a fundamental reliance on classic forms combined with "new" surface embellishment that is difficult to read. You get a confused mish-mash where it's not clear why the inventor stuck to a classic form to begin with. If you want to push boundaries, would it not be more courageous to create something more new from the ground up? To do so with clear purpose? In actuality, Despos's shirt-coat is much more in that spirit. Even a stalwart classic menswear lover can appreciate the added functionality--because that functionality makes sense within classic menswear, though the form did not exist before. We know to view it as more casual because it is less structured than a typical overcoat. The shirt collar relates it to shirt jackets, which we also view as a sort of casual, sporty hybrid. The lack of detailing makes it highly adaptable to different outfits. It can be made more dressy over a coat, yet makes sense over a sweater, too. Such a garment may not have existed before, but it is nonetheless soundly "classic menswear." It draws from the same language even if it speaks a new idea. Language, language, language. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not saying we all have to dress identically to be classic.

This all touches on the idea of coherency that Vox wrote about, though perhaps from a different angle.

On another note, I am home sick today so couldn't go outside to take photos. Here is the overcoat, properly buttoned and from a more level perspective. The height of the gorge is much more accurately depicted:

fooovercoat_indoors.jpg
post #332 of 436
Pleat looks much better with the front properly buttoned.
post #333 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I'm not concerned with what Taub intends to do. It's a question of whether the result is good or bad, and by what measure. As a piece of avant garde fashion, I have trouble understanding the value of what we've seen: a fundamental reliance on classic forms combined with "new" surface embellishment that is difficult to read. You get a confused mish-mash where it's not clear why the inventor stuck to a classic form to begin with. If you want to push boundaries, would it not be more courageous to create something more new from the ground up? To do so with clear purpose? In actuality, Despos's shirt-coat is much more in that spirit. Even a stalwart classic menswear lover can appreciate the added functionality--because that functionality makes sense within classic menswear, even if the form has not existed before. We know to view it as more casual because it is less structured than a typical overcoat. The shirt collar relates it to shirt jackets, which we also view as a sort of casual, sporty hybrid. The lack of detailing makes it highly adaptable to different outfits. It can be made more dressy over a coat, yet makes sense over a sweater, too. Such a garment may not have existed before, but it is nonetheless soundly "classic menswear." It draws from the same language even if it speaks a new idea. Language, language, language. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not saying we all have to dress identically to be classic.

I might add, this touches on the idea of coherency that Vox wrote about, though from a different angle perhaps.

On another note, I am home sick today so couldn't go outside to take photos. Here is the overcoat, properly buttoned:

fooovercoat_indoors.jpg
 
 

 

Does your coat fasten all the way up to the top?

post #334 of 436
Quote:
I'm not concerned with what Taub intends to do. It's a question of whether the result is good or bad,

This places it in a totally subjective environment with no sight of resolution.

If you know his intent, provide a modern look to a classic coat or make an avant garde piece, then it can be judged. Did he pull it off?

Like watching Project Runway. A purpose or function of a garment is given as the challenge and the individual makes his or her interpretation. They are judged by the criteria of the challenge. If they are given no guidelines and are free to design whatever is in their imagination. This has to be judged differently.
post #335 of 436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctp120 View Post

Pleat looks much better with the front properly buttoned.

I think that has more to with the cloth settling, but I'm not sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovelace View Post

Does your coat fasten all the way up to the top?

Err, yes and no. It safely fastens up to the top row of visible buttons (the row above where it is buttoned in the photo). There is also a button behind the lapel so that, theoretically, the lapel can be folded over completely and fastened. However, that doesn't work without a lot of fidgeting and it is incredibly uncomfortable. Don't think it's meant to actually work that way.

Anyone think the buttoning point is too high?
post #336 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

On another note, I am home sick today so couldn't go outside to take photos. Here is the overcoat, properly buttoned and from a more level perspective. The height of the gorge is much more accurately depicted:

fooovercoat_indoors.jpg

Much better picture to show the coat. Everything looks better here
post #337 of 436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post

This places it in a totally subjective environment with no sight of resolution.

No, it just means you need to be clear about how you are judging it. It is an absolutely terrible apple pie or tire rack. And that can be said objectively.
post #338 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post


This places it in a totally subjective environment with no sight of resolution.

If you know his intent, provide a modern look to a classic coat or make an avant garde piece, then it can be judged. Did he pull it off?

Like watching Project Runway. A purpose or function of a garment is given as the challenge and the individual makes his or her interpretation. They are judged by the criteria of the challenge. If they are given no guidelines and are free to design whatever is in their imagination. This has to be judged differently.

 

One area where I take issue with our friend is that he thinks every addition should have functional use and that he doesn't accept, or acknowledege that design progression is often a case of one thing morphing into another. It isn't always a blank piece of paper.

 

He also allows himself a privileged position.

 

Clothes have a functional purpose which is obvious, they also have a decorative one too.

 

I wonder does he intend to go riding in his coat?

post #339 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

[quote name="ctp120" url="/t/332612/best-bespoke-commission-ever-i-think-so-pictures-added-for-those-lacking-imagination/330#post_6085067"
Anyone think the buttoning point is too high?

Hard to tell. Height of the gorge will determine how comfortable it could be buttoned all the way to the top. The space between the collar and lapel has be in the right spot just below the base of your neck. Too high is constrictive. I start with the top button position and work down on a coat like this rather than work from the button position of waist up. The distance from top to waist determines the spacing.
post #340 of 436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovelace View Post

One area where I take issue with our friend is that he thinks every addition should have functional use and that he doesn't accept, or acknowledege that design progression is often a case of one thing morphing into another. It isn't always a blank piece of paper.

He also allows himself a privileged position.

Clothes have a functional purpose which is obvious, they also have a decorative one too.

I wonder does he intend to go riding in his coat?

You know what, I provided a very detailed analysis. You can disagree or agree with various points and explain why. I am not privileging myself; my explanation isn't "because I said so!" I appealed to what I think are common understandings within classic menswear to distinguish between the sorts of changes Despos made to his shirt-coat versus how Taub has embellished his design. If anyone wants to have a substantive discussion about what I'm saying, I think I've laid sufficient groundwork for that.

To be specific, I have made it very clear that I do not mean function in a purely physical sense. Clothes are also communicative. Despos's shirt-coat is a new sort of garment whose changes from pre-existing forms are functional from both a physical and communicative perspective.
post #341 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


I think that has more to with the cloth settling, but I'm not sure.
Err, yes and no. It safely fastens up to the top row of visible buttons (the row above where it is buttoned in the photo). There is also a button behind the lapel so that, theoretically, the lapel can be folded over completely and fastened. However, that doesn't work without a lot of fidgeting and it is incredibly uncomfortable. Don't think it's meant to actually work that way.

Anyone think the buttoning point is too high?


 That collar style is what I believe is called an Ulster collar. A kind of storm collar. This collar style is a feature on several of the coat styles we have been discussing.

 

There is also a variation called a Prussian collar.

post #342 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I'm not concerned with what Taub intends to do. It's a question of whether the result is good or bad, and by what measure. As a piece of avant garde fashion, I have trouble understanding the value of what we've seen: a fundamental reliance on classic forms combined with "new" surface embellishment that is difficult to read. You get a confused mish-mash where it's not clear why the inventor stuck to a classic form to begin with. If you want to push boundaries, would it not be more courageous to create something more new from the ground up? To do so with clear purpose?

I like the misappropriation of classic pieces.

I dress casual 90% of the time, but generally prefer to wear MC shoes rather than sneakers. I like shell longwings with denim, or white wingtips with tapered washed jeans etc.
post #343 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


You know what, I provided a very detailed analysis. You can disagree or agree with various points and explain why. I am not privileging myself; my explanation isn't "because I said so!" I appealed to what I think are common understandings within classic menswear to distinguish between the sorts of changes Despos made to his shirt-coat versus how Taub has embellished his design. If anyone wants to have a substantive discussion about what I'm saying, I think I've laid sufficient groundwork for that.

To be specific, I have made it very clear that I do not mean function in a purely physical sense. Clothes are also communicative. Despos's shirt-coat is a new sort of garment whose changes from pre-existing forms are functional from both a physical and communicative perspective.

..


Edited by Lovelace - 1/27/13 at 2:31pm
post #344 of 436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovelace View Post

That collar style is what I believe is called an Ulster collar. A kind of storm collar. This collar style is a feature on several of the coat styles we have been discussing.

I know what the collar is called. I was just describing how high the coat buttons up because I was asked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

I like the misappropriation of classic pieces.

I dress casual 90% of the time, but generally prefer to wear MC shoes rather than sneakers. I like shell longwings with denim, or white wingtips with tapered washed jeans etc.

I think longwings can be great with jeans, and I have no problem with appropriating classic pieces in casual outfits. After all, the whole point of being casual is that there are few if any rules. It is what you want it to be. However, the reverse doesn't work nearly as well. An otherwise CBD-style outfit would fail with basketball sneakers. As a tux would. That makes sense. Though casual is about no having no hard rules, business formal, black tie, etc. are chock full of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovelace View Post

'I have made it very clear that I do not mean function in a purely physical sense.' This sounds a bit woolly to me.

I've described in great length what I mean, in several posts.
post #345 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


I know what the collar is called. I was just describing how high the coat buttons up because I was asked.
I think longwings can be great with jeans, and I have no problem with appropriating classic pieces in casual outfits. After all, the whole point of being casual is that there are few if any rules. It is what you want it to be. However, the reverse doesn't work nearly as well. An otherwise CBD-style outfit would fail with basketball sneakers. As a tux would. That makes sense. Though casual is about no having no hard rules, business formal, black tie, etc. are chock full of them.
I've described in great length what I mean, in several posts.

 

Are you familiar with the architect Adolf Loos?

 

He is considered one of the founding fathers of Modernism (Style). His most famous, or infamous book depending on your particular bent is Ornamentation & Crime.

 

In the book he makes the claim that how ornamentation can have the effect of making things go out of style and render them obsolete.This became part of the Modernist manifesto. Worth a read if you haven't already.

 

He also wrote another book on Why a man should be well dressed.

 

There are other writers, more in keeping with the flavour of our particular interest that I recommend. James Laver being foremost amongst them. Laver is excellent.

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