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Best bespoke commission ever? I think so. *** PICTURES ADDED FOR THOSE LACKING IMAGINATION - Page 16

post #226 of 436
Thread Starter 
Machines and computers do play a huge role in contemporary art, though. That does not necessarily detract from the quality of the art.

Your first reaction to a thing may be emotional, but I'm not sure why that matters. Rational inspection clearly impacts our ongoing assessment. What your gut told you was ugly at first glance, you may grow to see as immensely beautiful.

You could argue the second coat posted is outside the classic idiom, but even so, it is then a weak attempt at best. Many of the changes appear frivolous as opposed to purposeful. Maybe I could be made to see it otherwise, but I would need someone to explain them to me. The first coat, on the other hand, is very clearly a classic piece in materially all respects but the back yoke.
post #227 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Well, the scrutiny and nitpicking becomes easy after a while and doesn't take any effort. Like riding a bike or driving stick.

That is true! It just takes effort for us to write about it on men's fashion forums! :^)
post #228 of 436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewfoot View Post

That is true! It just takes effort for us to write about it on men's fashion forums! :^)

Exactly, don't confuse all this writing for effort. It's like explaining how to breathe for some of us. smile.gif
post #229 of 436
Anyway, so do you have any other commissions with Rubinacci coming up? I assume none with artistic yoke details.
post #230 of 436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Anyway, so do you have any other commissions with Rubinacci coming up? I assume none with artistic yoke details.

I'm meeting them in February on their upcoming NYC visit. But just to inspect this new overcoat and maybe go over a few older things.
post #231 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
[...]The problem with the Taub coats posted here is not that they include new features. It's that those new features are bad. They are bad in terms of classic menswear because the value of such clothing is intrinsically tied to its classic-ness. There is very little good reason to wear a tie or to have lapels and a breast pocket anymore. It is just as there is no particularly good reason we say "hello" to greet people in English--other than that is what we have always done and it is well-understood by others. Hence, reckless expansion of the classic menswear language would only eat away at what makes it a worthwhile venture to begin with. Funny back yokes are reckless because they have neither a functional purpose, any clear aesthetic message, nor any apparent grounding in classic norms. It's like making up a new word without a defined meaning. Just guttural noise. [...]


 

Those features are only bad too you, others may like them. There is always some subjectivity.

 

A question if I may. Why did you show the coat to your tailor as an example of what you were looking for if you didn't like it. When I re-read your post I was left with the impression that you actually liked the coat but your tailors opinion changed your mind, hence your mention of his opinion.

 

Its interesting that you 'attack', Taub's yoke treatment yet do not see the similarity between Taub's approach and that of your own tailor. In Taub's case he has added a fancy yoke, in Rubinacci's he has deviated from the traditional pocket style and added other features not normally associated with the style. Are you suggesting that it is OK for your tailor to deviate, innovate, update but not another?  Actually, I think that out of the two coats, Taub's remains truest to the original, that is, the classic great coat.

 

I understand why you feel the need to 'build a wall' around 'classic dress'. You do need boundaries or else the term 'classic dress' ceases to have any real meaning. The problem is, that at the periphery, there isn't a clear demarcation its more fuzzy than that.

post #232 of 436
Thread Starter 
I didn't say I hated that first coat all around. I said I didn't like the back yoke detail. It was one of several examples I showed my tailor because the term "great coat" wasn't conveying anything.

You really don't see the difference between adding a completely new design feature without any functional value and simply utilizing a certain kind of pocket? What struck me as bizarre about the pockets was not their format or existence, but the manner of their execution. But they are, in fact, "envelope" pockets, which I specified and which are part of the classic lexicon. Also, I was going to have hip pockets in any event, regardless of the precise style. I can't say the same about a yoke.

As to your point about subjectivity--it is not subjective that such yokes are not orthodox. That is fact (though, I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!). And, as you suggest, the whole genre of classic menswear would be meaningless without definition. Hence it is objective fact, not mere opinion, that entirely new aesthetic additions can be bad for the genre.
post #233 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I didn't say I hated that first coat all around. I said I didn't like the back yoke detail. It was one of several examples I showed my tailor because the term "great coat" wasn't conveying anything.

You really don't see the difference between adding a completely new design feature without any functional value and simply utilizing a certain kind of pocket? What struck me as bizarre about the pockets was not their format or existence, but the manner of their execution. But they are, in fact, "envelope" pockets, which I specified and which are part of the classic lexicon. Also, I was going to have hip pockets in any event, regardless of the precise style. I can't say the same about a yoke.

As to your point about subjectivity--it is not subjective that such yokes are not orthodox. That is fact (though, I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!). And, as you suggest, the whole genre of classic menswear would be meaningless without definition. Hence it is objective fact, not mere opinion, that entirely new aesthetic additions can be bad for the genre.

LOL. Hence, why do you people keep falling into this trap over an over? There is nothing you can say, nothing, that will advance this conversation. I think dieworkwear caught on a few posts ago.
post #234 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I didn't say I hated that first coat all around. I said I didn't like the back yoke detail. It was one of several examples I showed my tailor because the term "great coat" wasn't conveying anything.

You really don't see the difference between adding a completely new design feature without any functional value and simply utilizing a certain kind of pocket? What struck me as bizarre about the pockets was not their format or existence, but the manner of their execution. But they are, in fact, "envelope" pockets, which I specified and which are part of the classic lexicon. Also, I was going to have hip pockets in any event, regardless of the precise style. I can't say the same about a yoke.

As to your point about subjectivity--it is not subjective that such yokes are not orthodox. That is fact. And, as you suggest, the whole genre of classic menswear would be meaningless without definition. Hence it is objective fact, not mere opinion, that entirely new aesthetic additions can be bad for the genre.


What advantage do envelope pockets have over a flapped pocket? Out of curiosity, why are they better for you?

 

I'm not saying that envelope pockets are not part of the classic lexicon but they are a foreign word in the lexicon of the great coat. They are a deviation, and in the case of your pockets stylistically more so than functionally. I don't have a problem with this mind. Innovation often comes from hybridisation. I do take issue with your implication that new design features should have a functional component though. Too utilitarian.

 

As to your point about subjectivity. It is subjective as to whether or not you find a yoke attractive, regardless of whether they are orthodox or not.

 

An entirely new atheistic addition can indeed be bad for the genre, they can equally be very good for it too.

 

Take a look at the work of this laboratory of style. A rather curvy yoke known as a  Van Dyke. Taub isn't the only one seduced by curved yokes it seems. :

 

 

 

What do you think?


Edited by Lovelace - 1/24/13 at 12:56pm
post #235 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Okay, have at it:


icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gificon_gu_b_slayer[1].gificon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

I like the idiosyncratic clothing geek foo, this is really nice.
post #236 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

Asymmetry seems to crop up a lot in "edgy" design without ever taking hold. I think there's a reason for that...

Asymmetry has been sucessfully used by avant-garde designers but it requires a full commitment (total look) and balancing it with other assymetric garments. I don't think you can do it with traditional menswear as symmetry is one of it's explicit goals. It's like wanting to do distorted silhouette or abandoning the idea of enhancing the secondary sexual characteristics (on men that's wide shoulders, slim waist, extended legs) like Rei Kawakubo at CdG often does for men or women. Commitment to a certain sartorial discourse (at least in an outfit) is not necessary when it comes to references but it is when it comes to the silhouette and texture.
post #237 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post


Asymmetry has been sucessfully used by avant-garde designers but it requires a full commitment (total look) and balancing it with other assymetric garments. I don't think you can do it with traditional menswear as symmetry is one of it's explicit goals. It's like wanting to do distorted silhouette or abandoning the idea of enhancing the secondary sexual characteristics (on men that's wide shoulders, slim waist, extended legs) like Rei Kawakubo at CdG often does for men or women. Commitment to a certain sartorial discourse (at least in an outfit) is not necessary when it comes to references but it is when it comes to the silhouette and texture.


...


Edited by Lovelace - 1/24/13 at 1:25pm
post #238 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

I don't think you can do it with traditional menswear as symmetry is one of it's explicit goals.

Going back to dww's point...buttonholes, breast pockets, ticket pockets, FiH knots...those don't count?
post #239 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovelace View Post


I don't have a problem with this view, but I wouldn't call the coat posted with the tapered yoke a traditional tailored garment. It is more akin to an avant garde product.

Then it cannot be worn sucessfully with a traditional menswear wardrobe so he is selling to the wrong clients and should approach L'Éclaireur or Dover street market to sell it along Carol Christian Poell, Comme des Garçons, Paul Harnden, Aithor Troup or whatever.
post #240 of 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Going back to dww's point...buttonholes, breast pockets, ticket pockets, FiH knots...those don't count?

The goal isn't to make the garments look symmetric, it is to make your body look symmetric....
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