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First proper watch - Page 3

post #31 of 69
$5000 is not going to get you anything unique and special. Sorry but it is what it is.

Getting into vintage watches when its clear you don't know much about watches in general in the first place is a disaster waiting to happen. Can you tell a real Ingeniuer from a fake or franken? Can you look at a photo of a movement and diagnose a franken movement?

If not, move on.

Vintage watches in a >39mm width are scarce too. The suggestions above are 33 and IIRC 35mm respectively.

A second hand watch is OK, but good luck finding a "mint" safe queen for a good price.

The IWC is OK, but the Explorer I is objectively a more versatile watch. The AT is OK. All 3 are pretty much the benchmark for your price range - entry level luxury watches.

Grand Seikos are watches internet nerds who never actually purchase them work themselves up into a frenzy over - such good value they coo, but somehow no one actually puts their money where their mouth is and buys one. I find them soulless with insipid designs, and the logo design alone is dreadful enough that I would avoid the whole marque because of it.

Last thing - and only because I keep hearing it - watch snobs are usually not thoroughly impressed by Grand Seikos. Dufours, yes. FP Journes or Pateks, yes. Grand Seikos, no. Grand Seikos impress Grand Seiko owners and the aforementioned nerds who always mention but never commit to actually purchasing one.
Edited by apropos - 1/15/13 at 4:10am
post #32 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post
Grand Seikos are watches internet nerds who never actually purchase them work themselves up into a frenzy over - such good value they coo, but somehow no one actually puts their money where their mouth is and buys one. I find them soulless with insipid designs, and the logo design alone is dreadful enough that I would avoid the whole marque because of it.

Last thing - and only because I keep hearing it - watch snobs are usually not thoroughly impressed by Grand Seikos. Dufours, yes. FP Journes or Pateks, yes. Grand Seikos, no. Grand Seikos impress Grand Seiko owners and the aforementioned nerds who always mention but never commit to actually purchasing one.

 

Perhaps you should hang out with a different crowd :)

post #33 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

$5000 is not going to get you anything unique and special. Sorry but it is what it is.

Getting into vintage watches when its clear you don't know much about watches in general in the first place is a disaster waiting to happen. Can you tell a real Ingeniuer from a fake or franken? Can you look at a photo of a movement and diagnose a franken movement?

If not, move on.

Vintage watches in a >39mm width are scarce too. The suggestions above are 33 and IIRC 35mm respectively.

A second hand watch is OK, but good luck finding a "mint" safe queen for a good price.

The IWC is OK, but the Explorer I is objectively a more versatile watch. The AT is OK. All 3 are pretty much the benchmark for your price range - entry level luxury watches.

Grand Seikos are watches internet nerds who never actually purchase them work themselves up into a frenzy over - such good value they coo, but somehow no one actually puts their money where their mouth is and buys one. I find them soulless with insipid designs, and the logo design alone is dreadful enough that I would avoid the whole marque because of it.

Last thing - and only because I keep hearing it - watch snobs are usually not thoroughly impressed by Grand Seikos. Dufours, yes. FP Journes or Pateks, yes. Grand Seikos, no. Grand Seikos impress Grand Seiko owners and the aforementioned nerds who always mention but never commit to actually purchasing one.

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion about options.

 

Vintage may not be the right answer for a number of reasons, but for that price range it is an option. Most people can't tell the difference between a real and fake, but that doesn't mean they can't enlist someone that can assist them and make sure it's authenic. I guess it depends on what you consider vintage but there are quite a few watches from the 60's and on that are 40mm in diameter.

 

A safe queen isn't really necessary, and besides most luxury steel watches tend to fair pretty well as long as they are not abused. The good thing about a good steel mechanical watch is one can get it polished, and as long as that person does it right it will look just like new. Besides once you get it you will eventually get a few scratches on it.

 

He may not be able to afford something on the higher end, but even some of those are not unique. As long as it is mass produced then someone else will have it. It's just at the higher end it will be less common. To a degree this will be true with manufactures on the lower end. Rolex is more common than any other, and someone like Seiko (Grand Seiko that is) and IWC much less so. They simply don't sell as many as Rolex. 

 

Did I miss something? I don't think I saw where the OP mentioned that he wanted to impress the snobiest of the snobs.

post #34 of 69

Duplicate

post #35 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by dddrees View Post

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion about options.

Vintage may not be the right answer for a number of reasons, but for that price range it is an option. Most people can't tell the difference between a real and fake, but that doesn't mean they can't enlist someone that can assist them and make sure it's authenic. I guess it depends on what you consider vintage but there are quite a few watches from the 60's and on that are 40mm in diameter.

A safe queen isn't really necessary, and besides most luxury steel watches tend to fair pretty well as long as they are not abused. The good thing about a good steel mechanical watch is one can get it polished, and as long as that person does it right it will look just like new. Besides once you get it you will eventually get a few scratches on it.

He may not be able to afford something on the higher end, but even some of those are not unique. As long as it is mass produced then someone else will have it. It's just at the higher end it will be less common. To a degree this will be true with manufactures on the lower end. Rolex is more common than any other, and someone like Seiko (Grand Seiko that is) and IWC much less so. They simply don't sell as many as Rolex. 

Did I miss something? I don't think I saw where the OP mentioned that he wanted to impress the snobiest of the snobs.

1. It's an option in the sense that driving at high speeds or shooting guns or playing with explosives without the necessary training is always an option. Would be fantastic if he found an altruistic WIS Jesus to hold his hand when going vintage but we all know that's likely not to happen.

For example, that Omega Constellation posted earlier?

It's:
- a redial
- with the wrong crown
- the wrong hands
- and has an overpolished case

How many people in this thread picked up on those? It's a jungle out there, and I would never recommend a newbie collector to go vintage.

2. Safe queen comment was in reference to his wanting a "mint" example.

3. People who can "properly" polish SS watches are uncommon at best, and the proof is all around us - look at the legions of badly polished 5512s/5513s/1680s or Omega Constellations in FS ads around the various watch fora/secondhand dealers.

4. Wasn't really aimed at the OP, but at the folk suggesting Grand Seiko, and of course an opportunity to vent! Helps keep the blood pressure down and all that. smile.gif
post #36 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post


1. It's an option in the sense that driving at high speeds or shooting guns or playing with explosives without the necessary training is always an option. Would be fantastic if he found an altruistic WIS Jesus to hold his hand when going vintage but we all know that's likely not to happen.

For example, that Omega Constellation posted earlier?

It's:
- a redial
- with the wrong crown
- the wrong hands
- and has an overpolished case

How many people in this thread picked up on those? It's a jungle out there, and I would never recommend a newbie collector to go vintage.

2. Safe queen comment was in reference to his wanting a "mint" example.

3. People who can "properly" polish SS watches are uncommon at best, and the proof is all around us - look at the legions of badly polished 5512s/5513s/1680s or Omega Constellations in FS ads around the various watch fora/secondhand dealers.

4. Wasn't really aimed at the OP, but at the folk suggesting Grand Seiko, and of course an opportunity to vent! Helps keep the blood pressure down and all that. smile.gif

Vintage for a newby would not be my number one recomendation either.

 

1. Dificult maybe, challenging possibly, impossible not entirely. If one were to find a reputable AD and take a look in their estate case, decent examples can be found.

post #37 of 69

Hi apropos,

 

I was reading the whole post on the forum and I saw that you have extensive knowledge of watches so I would like to ask you a question.

 

In your opinion, which watch should I buy if I have around $10,000 to spend? I understand that your "view" of a watch is like mine, rare thing in 2013... 

 

I am looking for a classical watch (under 40 mm), a good movement (maybe mechanical, maybe not), no need for gold or diamonds (only increase the price for the look, not quality related to me).

 

Yesterday, I was looking at the Jaeger Le Coultre web site and the Master section caught my attention. The "Master Réserve de Marche", calibre 938 seemed nice and in my price range. Would that be a good choice?

 

I know the top 4 brands in the world but right now, cannot afford them. If you have suggestions, I would really appreciate them.

 

Thank you.

post #38 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

Grand Seikos are watches internet nerds who never actually purchase them work themselves up into a frenzy over - such good value they coo, but somehow no one actually puts their money where their mouth is and buys one. I find them soulless with insipid designs, and the logo design alone is dreadful enough that I would avoid the whole marque because of it.
 

 

Well, this internet nerd DID purchase one.  Along with many Omega, IWC, JLC, Zenith, Blancpain and the odd Rolex over the years.  I find the Grand Seiko to be the equal or better of any of those brands at anywhere near a comparable price point.  "Insipid" is in the eye of the beholder.  Whichever watch you hold dear, I can guarantee that someone out there finds it lifeless and boring.

 

There are several GS owners on watchuseek - easily one of the largest watch forums.  Not nearly as many as Rolex, but then again a million new Grand Seikos aren't flooding the market each year.

post #39 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

 

Well, this internet nerd DID purchase one.  Along with many Omega, IWC, JLC, Zenith, Blancpain and the odd Rolex over the years.  I find the Grand Seiko to be the equal or better of any of those brands at anywhere near a comparable price point.  "Insipid" is in the eye of the beholder.  Whichever watch you hold dear, I can guarantee that someone out there finds it lifeless and boring.

 

There are several GS owners on watchuseek - easily one of the largest watch forums.  Not nearly as many as Rolex, but then again a million new Grand Seikos aren't flooding the market each year.

Well said.

post #40 of 69
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post #41 of 69
Nice post A. And while I don't have as strong distaste for Grand Seikos as you, I do agree that for the most part, a certain sect of individuals buy them and decree their value quite loudly.

Interesting catch on the constellation, and something I wonder about often on here. I've seen a few frankens and reps on the Watch Appreciation thread but have noticed that no one ever says anything..I'd like to think out of courtesy. But something wonder if the owners themselves even know.

Cheers.
post #42 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profacio View Post

Nice post A. And while I don't have as strong distaste for Grand Seikos as you, I do agree that for the most part, a certain sect of individuals buy them and decree their value quite loudly.
 

"Certain sect?"  Do you mean by that phrase people who own one or have at least seen one in person?  How is that different than owners or individuals with hands-on experience expressing an opinion on the product of any other brand?  Can you not at least allow for the possibility that those who purchased Grand Seiko watches are singing their praises because were actually very impressed by the product - even if you are (presumably) less impresed?   Again, please explain how this is any different from, say, owners of JLC watches loudly praising their purchases (which they most certainly do)? 

 

I can tell you what I have seen when it comes to the Grand Seiko line.  Praise from owners, yes, in abundance.  But also a lot of hating from elitist snobs (most of whom have never seen or held a GS)  who think anything Japanese - but particularly Japanese watches - is by definition cheap and second rate.  An ignorant view to be sure, but ignorance lies at the heart of most hating.

 

As for vintage pieces, not everyone would prefer a moldy, oxidized original dial to a clean re-dial, and as long as the seller discloses, the buyer is aware and the price reflects that fact, I don't see a problem with it at all.  A site like WUS provides ample opportunity for a newbie to ask questions about a prospective vintage purchase and get input from many expert sources.  It's not nearly the ominous minefield of near certain disaster that some make it out to be.  But as the OP does not appear to be seeking a vintage piece, it is perhaps beside the fact here.  And yes, I know that the dial the Connie is a re-dial, just as I know that the dial on the Yacht Club is original.

post #43 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa kot View Post

 

I see your point and in a sense. If you want to have one and only one watch, I'd get it from the top four (Patek, Vacheron, Audemars, Breguet) or Lange (the future member of the top 5).  And it means saving some money first.

 

 

 

To the OP:  Have you checked Timezone.com or Rolexforums.com? You should hang around there and read some posts. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dddrees View Post

I think the IWC is a good option, but there are plenty of options out there at that price point to include used and vintage as well. A vintage watch probably would not be the best option for you at this point. It really just depends on what your looking for and how much time your willing to spend researching this purchase. I personally expect a watch that cost this much to last a lifetime, and if you care for it properly it very easily can last a lifetime. If you plan to make this your one and only watch it surely would be worth it to take sometime and look around. Personally I would highly recomend a used but not vintage Rolex at that price point for your first watch, but you have already decided a Rolex does not work for you. Besides you need to find the watch that works for you.

 

I would recomend taking sometime and checking some manufactures websites and watch forums first if you have yet to do so. Also visit a decent number of ADs and try some on.

 

Wow, some of you have been really helpful! Funnily enough I have just got back from a few AD's to check out several of the watches listed.  I tried on multiple Ingenieurs, Portuguese automatic, (even a cheeky big pilot which I fell in love with), the Aqua Terra, Explorer, and a couple others!  I have been constantly browsing the watch appreciation thread here, infact I am exactly 730 pages into it without having skipped a single one.  I have also been on chrono24, timezone, and watchuseek every day researching the watches I am interested in.  
Just to clear this up, whilst I appreciate the GS, it would not be something I am interested in at this point in time.
 
I am not looking for a watch to "impress watch snobs" I am looking for a watch that I will enjoy and that will take my collection to the next level.  A quality swiss automatic, on a bracelet, that I will not necessarily wear every day, but will see a lot of wrist time.  I am fascinated by watches and having spent Xmas in HK drooling over the various boutiques, will certainly be collecting watches for the forseeable future.  
 
I didn't actually find much connection with the Aqua Terra, it is beautiful but strangely I found it better looking in pictures.  
The Explorer, once again, is not a watch that I am particularly interested in.  If I were to own a Rolex, which I have every intention of doing so in the future, I would like to own a Sea dweller or a Daytona.  
I am not interested in vintage watches at this point in time.  The IWC Inge I am considering was dis-continued in either 08/09 (cant remember of the top of my head) and that hardly classifies it as vintage.  
When I stated I wanted something a little bit unique, I was referring to amongst the general population, not WIS.  For example, several of my friends own Brietlings, Rolex Submariners, Tag's etc.  True, they were generally all graduation gifts and they had no choice in the matter, but I am purchasing this watch for myself, and as a person with interest in watches and a budget that I feel to be perfectly respectable for my age, I wanted something a little different.  I may be wrong but I would not imagine there to be too many 24 year old's in London who can proudly say they wear the Ingenieur 322701, a watch with an in house movement, strong links to Genta's original design, stunning dial and finishing, with a great bracelet and great history, specifically sourced as the start of a great collection.  That is what I meant by something a little bit unique or different.  Not "oh he wants something unique but he cant afford a Lange 1, no point in owning a watch until you can...."  I, just like all of you have a list of grail watches that I would love to fulfill and yes, many are produced by PP, VC, ALS etc but right now that is not a realistic possibility, so rather than berate me for not spending £15,000 on a watch, it would be far more appreciated that, like so many of you have, I am provided with constructive feedback.  
 
I really really liked the Big Pilot (Why did I have to try it on facepalm.gif)
post #44 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profacio View Post

Interesting catch on the constellation, and something I wonder about often on here. I've seen a few frankens and reps on the Watch Appreciation thread but have noticed that no one ever says anything..I'd like to think out of courtesy. But something wonder if the owners themselves even know.

Cheers.

You should definitely say something.
post #45 of 69
Thread Starter 

Also, I apologise for the late responses.  I am new to this site and as a result all my posts need to be moderated before they are allowed ffffuuuu.gif

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