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Brass Nails used to impede shoe wear - Page 5

post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

What would be the best method to maintain relatively even sole wear to prevent resoling prior to getting/close to getting a hole at the ball of the shoes?

I don't know. Take dancing lessons and learn to walk...??biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Where exactly is the inseam for handwelted shoes and for gemmed shoes?  On the feather, outside edge of the feather or inside edge?  And are you suggesting toe plates are not good for the insole?  What about a row or two nails at the toe?

worship.gif

If by feather you mean the edge of the insole...which in turn corresponds to the feather edge of the last...the inseam may be at the feather or slightly inset from it (depending on the maker). Roughly 1/4" +/-

On a gemmed shoe it will probably be roughly the same distance from the edge the leatherboard insole--1/4".

I don't think toe plates are particularly good for the shoe much less the insole. I've seen too many shoes where the inseam was cut and torn by nails, nevermind the damage that a screw does.Yes, it could be avoided if the repairman or shoemaker knows where the inseam is and if you're not talking about flush mounted toe plates. Unfortunately the default holes drilled into toe plates (flush mounted or otherwise) virtually force one or more nails into the inseam in order to position the toe plate so that it can protect the outsole.

Brass nails driven into the forepart must be placed with the same constraints in mind but they don't have to damage the inseam. That said, if they are placed far enough from the edge of the outsole to avoid the inseam, they are less effective in protecting the furthest extremity of the outsole.
post #62 of 89
double post...sorry.
post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidream View Post

Love the toe in first picture. Any background anecdote to add, NORE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post

  wow. who did THAT piece of work ?

Chay at Alfred Sargent. I sent the shoes back for a resole after I'd worn them out and I imagine they added the nails on the toe after recognizing I wear out toes prematurely. A good bunch, them.
post #64 of 89
One thing that I meant to say but forgot is that nails don't have to be driven into the insole. The three rows of nails are not holding anything, esp. if the heads are clipped or very small. The sole, however, is still held on by stitching.

So...the upshot is that the nails can be short and never impinge upon the inseam. Never enter the insole. Although that far forward they may cut the stitching that holds the outsole on. But it would be minimal simply because the nails would tend to pierce the thread rather than cut.

The AS shoes and the three rows of nails are the very best solution to a somewhat difficult solution. That's the way I'd do it...FWIW.

--
Edited by DWFII - 1/2/13 at 5:31pm
post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidream View Post

Most likely on the inside of the seam, in order to avoid the welt.

 

  precisely where they're located.

  their location prompted me to wonder if they were more decorative than functional.

post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post


Chay at Alfred Sargent. I sent the shoes back for a resole after I'd worn them out and I imagine they added the nails on the toe after recognizing I wear out toes prematurely. A good bunch, them.

 

   yes them are.

   that is awesome work. i can't imagine how it could NOT help with wear to some degree.

post #67 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post

Chay at Alfred Sargent. I sent the shoes back for a resole after I'd worn them out and I imagine they added the nails on the toe after recognizing I wear out toes prematurely. A good bunch, them.

I am sorry I find it impossible to believe anyone on this thread actually wears a shoe out.lurker[1].gif
post #68 of 89
I would be interested in DW's or any other shoe master's input on the different types of rubber heel inserts on shoes and how/why some last way longer than others.

Back when I was still trying to get sizing down across different brands I would purchase pre-owned shoes and promptly take them to my local cobbler for top lifts. I would opt for the combination leather/rubber version (I believe the rubber part was stamped Vibram, much like the Vibram 'topy' material is) and on the leather part it would read Made in Italy. Those would wear out very quickly whereas on my Edward Green, Alfred Sargent, Carmina, et al. shoes I find they last long enough not to have the top lifts replaced until the entire shoe needed resoling (disclaimer: So far I have never had to have any of those repaired save the AS shoes I posted above due to egregious and unSF approved use; 3-4 wears weekly).

I also have noticed that EG & AS use relatively small rubber portions, perhaps because the rubber is harder/more durable? C&J, Church's, Cheaney & Alden for instance, use the dovetailed versions and I have found those to be a bit less hard wearing.
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post

I would be interested in DW's or any other shoe master's input on the different types of rubber heel inserts on shoes and how/why some last way longer than others.

If you ever figure out what type of material wears best, let me know. I make my own combi toplifts using a Vibram toplifting material. It seems to wear well.
post #70 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

One thing that I meant to say but forgot is that nails don't have to be driven into the insole. The three rows of nails are not holding anything, esp. if the heads are clipped or very small. The sole, however, is still held on by stitching.
So...the upshot is that the nails can be short and never impinge upon the inseam. Never enter the insole. Although that far forward they may cut the stitching that holds the outsole on. But it would be minimal simply because the nails would tend to pierce the thread rather than cut.
The AS shoes and the three rows of nails are the very best solution to a somewhat difficult solution. That's the way I'd do it...FWIW.
--
how much does that triple row of nails at the toe actually prevent wear?
post #71 of 89
my sutors have nailing at the toe and yes it does help deter the toe from thinning down.

how much? sort of a grayscale answer. better than nothing, but not as good as metal taps, obviously.

they are effective enough that i chose not to tap them, whereas the taps are applied to all other shoes with standard leather toes.
post #72 of 89
As long as we have experts on this thread, a few more questions. The old Florsheim gunboats had heels full of iron nails, apparently to make them wear longer. Would their famous slipperiness have been controlled if they had used brass instead? When having heels replaced, is this an option? Does anyone make brass V cleats and nails of the appropriate size? Given DWF's comments about the brass nails bending, would this be practical for a cobbler to attempt? The old Florsheims also had the famous 5 nails in the soles. These were not on the wear surface, so presumably it was not to protect from wear. What were they for, did they work, and do people replace them when resoling such shoes? If one has shoes with worn soles, soft in the center, but no hole, is there any reason to resole now, versus waiting until a hole appears? When resoling double oak soles, do you replace both soles? Or only the outer sole, assuming the inner sole has not developed wear? And last, for DWF: Cordwaining a 10,000 year old trade? That is amazing!! I am an emerging ancient history buff and I am curious how people came to that conclusion. I would have thought that such a trade would have required relatively stable civilizations, agriculture and development of specialization that, I thought, had not occurred that long ago. Can you elaborate on where and when such an old trade was found to have developed? Did someone find a 10,000 year old shoe factory? Did that rewrite the history of when agriculture and civilization came into use?
Edited by dbhdnhdbh - 1/4/13 at 7:30am
post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trompe le Monde View Post

my sutors have nailing at the toe and yes it does help deter the toe from thinning down.
how much? sort of a grayscale answer. better than nothing, but not as good as metal taps, obviously.
they are effective enough that i chose not to tap them, whereas the taps are applied to all other shoes with standard leather toes.

If you ignore or discount the damage that metal toe taps do to the shoe and the god-awful clatter they make...that's about right.
post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

As long as we have experts on this thread, a few more questions. The old Florsheim gunboats had heels full of iron nails, apparently to make them wear longer. Would their famous slipperiness have been controlled if they had used brass instead? When having heels replaced, is this an option? Does anyone make brass V cleats and nails of the appropriate size? Given DWF's comments about the brass nails bending, would this be practical for a cobbler to attempt? The old Florsheims also had the famous 5 nails in the soles. These were not on the wear surface, so presumably it was not to protect from wear. What were they for, did they work, and do people replace them when resoling such shoes? If one has shoes with worn soles, soft in the center, but no hole, is there any reason to resole now, versus waiting until a hole appears? When resoling double oak soles, do you replace both soles? Or only the outer sole, assuming the inner sole has not developed wear? And last, for DWF: Cordwaining a 10,000 year old trade? That is amazing!! I am an emerging ancient history buff and I am curious how people came to that conclusion. I would have thought that such a trade would have required relatively stable civilizations, agriculture and development of specialization that, I thought, had not occurred that long ago. Can you elaborate on where and when such an old trade was found to have developed? Did someone find a 10,000 year old shoe factory? Did that rewrite the history of when agriculture and civilization came into use?

Lot of questions...some I can't answer. Last to first...

I'm not an historian, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. crackup[1].gif

Actually one of my best friends is the head shoemaker at Colonial Williamsburg and an internationally recognized shoe historian. Despite my best efforts, I have absorbed a considerable amount of useful information from him.

As I understand it, what makes the "10,000 years..." bit so notable is the inclusion of the word "Trade." Humans have been wearing some form of footbag/foot covering time out of mind. IIRC, the "shoes" in question were found at Fort Rock, here in Oregon. The archeologists in charge of the dig determined that these shoes were made by a third party...for some sort of recompense. How they determined that I don't know. Maybe just seeing other pairs with some form of distinguishing mark or technique--like nail patterns on heels today. But just as not everyone who used or needed flint knives or points had the knack to knap flint and had to trade with someone who did, so too, at some point it would not be unusual for a particularly skillful individual to make shoes for other folks. Ipso facto--a Trade.

The minute a hole appears in the bottom of your shoe, some damage has already been done to the insole. The deformation alone can be significant. But even if the outsole appear intact, moisture can wick into contact with the insole.

On a double soled shoe, if the "midsole" is undamaged, or minimally damaged, it is not necessary to replace it. But caution is the better part of valor here--any thinning of that layer affects the way the shoe functions and impacts...albeit marginally...gait. Not good, IOW.
post #75 of 89
Fascinating, and valuable information. For free. What a resource! Thanks DWF I suppose there may have been a middle ground between everyone creating their own foot coverings and people supporting themselves by making shoes. Someone might have enough hide to make a second pair, and barter it for something else. They were not necessarily a tradesperson, or even particularly expert, but by happenstance had an extra pair of shoes available. Or they might be known to make better shoes, so people might specifically come to them with a proposal to swap something else for shoes, once made. On the other hand, finding a person wearing shoes made by someone else does not tell us that this was a result of an economic transaction. Maybe the maker/previous owner died, or lost them, or they were stolen. It would be interesting to know how we got to the point that one could more or less make a living by producing shoes, which would seem to require a larger population density and more established civilization to make that possible. Would a hunter-gatherer society be able to have such a thing? In any case, the level of knowledge is breath taking.
Edited by dbhdnhdbh - 1/4/13 at 2:21pm
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