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Brass Nails used to impede shoe wear - Page 3

post #31 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


The lasting tacks and the basketry tacks (your links) have heads that are roughly four times the diameter of the nails that I am using. The heads are also not perfectly round. Neither the 3 ounce lasting tacks and especially not the 1/2 ounce basketry tacks (which are roughly 1/4" long) are long enough to secure a rubber or leather toplift. Furthermore the "shaft" of both the lasting tack and the basketry tack are cut metal, squarish/flat, and probably not more than 1.5 millimeters at the thickest point.

I may be off my rocker but ignorance is worse.
Originally Posted by kennkim View Post


the way that the nails are driven with the head flush into the rubber really makes me doubt that they will ever be hit with a glancing blow (especially arising from some sort of heel strike that would create an equivalent force), so I think that your concern is quite unfounded.

 

  mr. kennkim . . . . i realize you're having a discussion with DFW about installing nails as heel or toe

  protection. frankly I lilke the idea and hope to work with a cobbler to accomplish the same thing

  without cutting into the sole for a toeplate.

 

  i'm sticking my 2 in here maybe unwanted, but want to ask you to look at the pic below

                 700

 

   he, whose balls you're trying to bust made this beauty. understand what that means ?

   unless you, yourself can create something like that . . . . stfu & listen

post #32 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

If ever there was someone who could explain and elaborate, it is DFWII. Here's hoping he can expand on his earlier comments. What kind of nails are suitable for shoes, composition of nails...

The closest thing we can come up with in the States at the present time is a 3/4" brass nail, 16 gauge (roughly 1mm in diameter), perfectly round, and the head is only slightly bigger than the shank. Even so in order to achieve the same finesse that the best bespoke makers in Britain attain, the head must be clipped off and the top of the shank filed perfectly flat before the nail is driven flush to the surface of the leather.

Most "shoe nails' being used in lower end shoes and by repairmen are iron.

In the old Florsheims and other heavy brogues made during the '40's and '50's, you'll sometimes see a entirely leather heel with a double row of square, iron nails. these are known as "Shoe nails" and are still available in many different lengths. But ask anyone who has worn these type of heels and most will tell you that once the leather wears just a little, the iron comes proud of the surface and slippery as the devil.

--
Edited by DWFII - 1/1/13 at 8:08pm
post #33 of 89

The brass nails in the shoe are only for decoration. The best way to make your new shoes last if they have leather soles is to wear then for around a week then take them to a shoe repairer to have the soles covered in a thin rubber sole. It costs about $30 here in Australia. 

post #34 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post

  mr. kennkim . . . . i realize you're having a discussion with DFW about installing nails as heel or toe
  protection. frankly I lilke the idea and hope to work with a cobbler to accomplish the same thing
  without cutting into the sole for a toeplate.

  i'm sticking my 2 in here maybe unwanted, but want to ask you to look at the pic below
                 700


   he, whose balls you're trying to bust made this beauty. understand what that means ?
   unless you, yourself can create something like that . . . . stfu & listen

I made a mistake posting that photo...I corrected it immediately, but you got to it before I finished. Thank you for that. The shoes look really good esp. if you click on the photo and view the larger version.
post #35 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post


   he, whose balls you're trying to bust made this beauty. understand what that means ?
   unless you, yourself can create something like that . . . . stfu & listen

if you call what I am discussing a "ball busting", then you are being quite sensitive and dramatic about it.

also, your behavior is quite sad, especially the random "stfu & listen", i'll get right on that, tough guy.

smile.gif

(PS - ifs the "Gent" in your username, short for gentleman?)
post #36 of 89
Profanity is not called for, and pressing DWF often yields more information. Just remember the depth of knowledge underlying everything he says.

So, for those of us who are not trying to reproduce top bespoke shoe effects, but just prolong the life of heels, would 3/4 inch 16 gauge lasting nails help? If we just use them without cutting off the heads and filing as you describe would they still serve the functional purpose? And yes, as a Florsheim lover I can confirm those steel nails are indestructible, but slippery.
post #37 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

So, for those of us who are not trying to reproduce top bespoke shoe effects, but just prolong the life of heels, would 3/4 inch 16 gauge lasting nails help? If we just use them without cutting off the heads and filing as you describe would they still serve the functional purpose? And yes, as a Florsheim lover I can confirm those steel nails are indestructible, but slippery.

Lasting tacks--not much, I don't believe, either in iron or brass. The heads are too thin to withstand much abrasion, yet too wide to allow close placement of the tacks.

Escutcheon pins with the head cut off, or what's known as an "extra brass clinching nail" might work, all though the latter are square in cross section.

One of the things that I do, however is use a pegging awl to pre-hole the heel or sole. Trying to drive a brass nail into a quality leather toplift is begging for a bend.

Make sure you have the shoe on an iron repair anvil/last esp. if you're placing nails in the forepart of the shoe.

--
Edited by DWFII - 1/2/13 at 6:07am
post #38 of 89
One of the things to remember in all this is that shoemaking is an old, old Trade--some historians/archeologists contend that, as a Trade, it goes back 10,000 years. As such it has been evolving for a very long time...and every technique or material that can conceivably be tried/used has been used.

And techniques and materials that have "risen to the top" in this evolutionary/developmental winnowing end up as "best practices" of the most respected bespoke makers. The fastest, and cheapest (time is money), and the most easily implemented--expedient--end up as quality control issues in factories.

So, lasting tacks may give you some protection...heck, staples will give you some protection...against wear. If nothing else they will boost your morale.

But of all the options available to us--iron shoe nails, lasting tacks(brass or iron), maple pegs, etc., even metal or plastic toe plates, the brass nails are the most appropriate and most aesthetic and, simultaneously, the most effective solution yet found.

--
Edited by DWFII - 1/2/13 at 8:13am
post #39 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

One of the things to remember in all this is that shoemaking is an old, old Trade--some historians/archeologists contend that, as a Trade, it goes back 10,000 years. As such it has been evolving for a very long time...and every technique or material that can conceivably be tried/used has been used.
And the best of the best end up as "best practices" of the most respected bespoke makers.
So, lasting tacks may give you some protection...heck, staples will give you some protection...against wear. If nothing else they will boost your morale.
But of all the options available to us--iron shoe nails, lasting tacks(brass or iron), maple pegs, etc., even metal or plastic toe plates, the brass nails are the most appropriate and most aesthetic and, simultaneously, the most effective solution yet found.

 

  dwf . . . . what is the routine depth the screws on metal toeplates penetrate the leather ?

post #40 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post

  dwf . . . . what is the routine depth the screws on metal toeplates penetrate the leather ?

Well of course it depends on the screws used and the depth to which the toe plate has been inset. But I've never seen a toe plate where the screws did not penetrate the insole...sometimes, often, cutting the inseam.

How thick is a toe plate? How thick is a leather outsole? How deep into solid material do the screws have to go to provide a secure anchor?

Toe plates vary in thickness but an eighth inch is probably about average.

Thick outsoles (not often seen on high end dress shoes) are 12 iron--one quarter inch thick. To inset a toe plate the outsole must be ground away to a depth of one eighth inch...and in the process cutting and removing much of the stitching that holds the outsole in place.

The insole may be as little as one eighth of an inch thick...if it is leather...and the screws will need to penetrate it almost entirely to hold the toe plate and secure the toe of the outsole as well as the lost stitching did.

And worst of all the screws invariably...almost of necessity...end up in the same line/vicinity as the inseam--the seam that holds the welt in place.
post #41 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Well of course it depends on the screws used and the depth to which the toe plate has been inset. But I've never seen a toe plate where the screws did not penetrate the insole...sometimes, often, cutting the inseam.
How thick is a toe plate? How thick is a leather outsole? How deep into solid material do the screws have to go to provide a secure anchor?
Toe plates vary in thickness but an eighth inch is probably about average.
Thick outsoles (not often seen on high end dress shoes) are 12 iron--one quarter inch thick. To inset a toe plate the outsole must be ground away to a depth of one eighth inch...and in the process cutting and removing much of the stitching that holds the outsole in place.
The insole may be as little as one eighth of an inch thick...if it is leather...and the screws will need to penetrate it almost entirely to hold the toe plate and secure the toe of the outsole as well as the lost stitching did.
And worst of all the screws invariably...almost of necessity...end up in the same line/vicinity as the inseam--the seam that holds the welt in place.

 

  thanks. cutting enough of the toe area to install a toe wear protection plate is starting to come across as counter intuitive.

  i'm beginning to think the 'cool factor' isn't worth it in the long run.

post #42 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post

  thanks. cutting enough of the toe area to install a toe wear protection plate is starting to come across as counter intuitive.
  i'm beginning to think the 'cool factor' isn't worth it in the long run.

Well, that's my conclusion as well but then I'm looking at it from a little different perspective than even the most fastidious consumer.
post #43 of 89
Thread Starter 
My issue is that regardless of how invasive a toe tap (plate) may be, my wear pattern is just as damaging, bringing me close to the welt if left unmanaged. This is what has forced my hand in exploring alternatives. I currently have a topy and an unrecessed toe tap on one pair, and I find them both unsightly, subsequently bringing me to consider brass nails.
post #44 of 89
Parenthetically...now that I'm back in the shop and not relying on ancient memory...I need to set the record straight; The nails I got from Marsh Fasteners came in an half pound box. The brads I got from Gurney...which, AFAIK, were the last of old stock...came in one pound boxes. My mistake.
post #45 of 89
DFW -- what is your opinion on other (DIY or otherwise) options to prolong leather sole wear, such as the installation of a thin layer of protective material such as rubber directly onto the leather sole?
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