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The perfect tuxedo except for one thing... - Page 7

post #91 of 142
I can only hope you saw what I did--it wasn't particularly complicated. Nonetheless, I'm glad you're proud of yourself for accomplishing the task.
post #92 of 142
Oh yes - I saw the same pattern of behavior being repeated yet again. Happy to let you have the last word though - it seems very important to you.
post #93 of 142
I'd probably avoid engaging in arguments with an attorney-turned-investment banker who manages to find time to write a blog unrelated to law or finance and post eloquent and typo-free posts (whether or not you like/agree with them) on here simply because I'll lose based on stamina alone smile.gif. Pretty sure in that situation I'm OK with just getting foo.gif ed and taking it like a man.
post #94 of 142
You are undoubtedly right. I just feel the need to tilt at windmills sometimes.
post #95 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

There was no logical pretzel, just reasoning you didn't understand. As for name-calling, I have no problem with it when others resort to ad hominem argument. If you're going to attack a person, there is no reason not to do it directly, unless you lack the conviction or intellectual clarity to do so.

Reasoning I don't understand? Hmm. I don't think you've bothered to address my reasoning. [ You're definition of correct is a subset of a larger set of acceptable configurations. This larger set is evident the world over in world class manifestations, but not the ones you consider OK. ]

What you've taken as ad hominem is relevant to the subject. With your presence on SF, you frequently take the same attitude and view - the superiority of your own tastes, and deviations being wrong. You're infalability is crucial to you. It's insufferable.

Think back to how you discussed the great coat that you got, that was of course branded "the greatest ever", and how you framed so many things as "no matter what you say, i still won't change it or agree anything is wrong." I don't think you could bear admitting that any part of it wasn't superior.

It's just pompous.

Most people don't bother to quarrel with you because you're willing to drone on endlessly, kind of like DWII or DFII or whoever the shoemaker guy is that rages against technology, slightly modifying your stance or argument each time it has been well rebutted.
post #96 of 142
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
post #97 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flake View Post

I was in Poole's a few years back and heard the story of how Henry Poole created the first of what would become the "tuxedo". It was an informal dinner jack for Edward VII, I believe. It was decidedly something that stood out, rather than conformed. And was a rather bright blue.

Funny how that evolved into something that looks nothing like the original, and then somehow became fixed and rigid around a set of rules that would make the original appear to be an abomination. How does something evolve for fifty years, and then arbitrarily become fixed in time? It's not a rhetorical question.

For what it's worth, I prefer very traditional peak lapel, no vent single button, proper waste coat, with grosgrain facings and in midnight not pure black. So I adhere to 'proper' tuxedo rules in general. But the question of how something that's not at all like the original became 'proper' is interesting to me.

The actual name "Tuxedo" refers to Tuxedo Park, New York, a nearby country estate locale for the New York
monied elite in the "Gilded Age"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxedo
post #98 of 142
If someone has a single vented tuxedo that they like, of course they should not throw it away and buy a new one (though getting the vent sewn shut is a reasonable option). The degree to which people care about standards and whether there are standards are two separate questions. I think that sometimes those arguing against standards confuse these points, often to the detriment of discussion here.

1. There are standards of dress and any attempt to deride such standards as mere preferences or deny that they exist is incorrect and ignorant. If there are no standards, then every thread should only have the response "Wear what you like" and this forum is pointless. There are pretty clear standards on how to wear black tie, good sources such as www.blacktieguide.com, etc.

2. In the real world, there is limited enforcement of these standards and many people either do not notice or do not care. The social consequences of small deviations (e.g. single vented tuxedo vs. wearing jeans and a baseball cap to a black tie event) from these standards are likely to be minimal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke42 View Post

What about "cummerbund vs. vest vs. suspenders", or "pleated + studs vs. flat + studs vs. fly front placket", or "wing collar vs. spread collar vs. point collar", etc.?

To me, all of those seem to be far more significant deviations from any sort of standard than "no vent vs. side vent vs. center vent."

The examples you're citing are for the most part not things I would consider "deviations" from a standard but rather different options that are considered acceptable within the standard (though I cannot see a point collar shirt ever being remotely correct with black tie). Black tie is largely a uniform but there are some choices one may make within it. As I understand it, these are the main options:

1. Black or midnight blue
2. Grosgrain or satin lapels and trouser detailing
3. Peak or shawl lapels (shirt choice comes in here since I believe a wing collar should only be worn with peak lapels)
4. Pleated or marcella front shirt
5. Pleated or plain front trousers
6. Cummerbund or vest
7. Shape of self-tie bow tie used
8. Ventless or double vents (I am on the fence on this one as I really do believe ventless is more correct)

If you are supposed to choose between peak or shawl lapels when picking a tux, notch lapels would be a deviation. Same thing applies to vents. Single vent is clearly a deviation. I'd agree that some of my points and yours may alter the look to a greater extent, but they do so in a way that is still considered proper.
post #99 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by comrade View Post

The actual name "Tuxedo" refers to Tuxedo Park, New York, a nearby country estate locale for the New York
monied elite in the "Gilded Age"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxedo

Yes. Supposedly (according to Poole's anyway) a member of the Tuxedo Park Supper Club was a guest of Prince Edward, and had Poole make a copy of Edward's jacket for himself, which he brought back to the states. Club members copied it, and thus the Tuxedo was born. Again, that's according to the folks at Henry Poole, though I have no reason to doubt it.
post #100 of 142
Do we have any info on the configuration of that original, just for kicks? Seems reasonable to assume it had differentiated lapels, but who knows on the rest...
post #101 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

Do we have any info on the configuration of that original, just for kicks? Seems reasonable to assume it had differentiated lapels, but who knows on the rest...

Took a look at Poole's website. It says their 1865 ledger describes it as a celestial blue silk short smoking jacket lined with silk.
post #102 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

As I understand it, these are the main options:

1. Black or midnight blue
2. Grosgrain or satin lapels and trouser detailing
3. Peak or shawl lapels (shirt choice comes in here since I believe a wing collar should only be worn with peak lapels)
4. Pleated or marcella front shirt
5. Pleated or plain front trousers
6. Cummerbund or vest
7. Shape of self-tie bow tie used
8. Ventless or double vents (I am on the fence on this one as I really do believe ventless is more correct)

A few more I'd add are:

1. Single or double breasted
2. If DB, 4x1 or 4x2 button style
3. Tabs or braces
4. If a marcella front shirt, material for collar and cuffs (if turndown collar)
5. Fly-front or stud holes on shirt
6. Oxfords or pumps
7. Patent or calf (shoes)
8. Detachable or attached collar (I know detachable is typically associated with white tie, but have never heard of it being incorrect for black)

For less formal events, likely in a private home, I'd add:

1. Velvet DJ instead of wool
2. Formal slippers instead of footwear mentioned above

In warmer climates I'd also add:

1. Ivory DJ + formal trousers or dinner suit
2. Burgundy or black tie/cummerbund (this is per black tie guide, I shit you not)
post #103 of 142
Good additions for the most part. My list ended up being more abridged than intended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

2. Burgundy or black tie/cummerbund (this is per black tie guide, I shit you not)

If you're at a black tie event in the tropics and already wearing a white dinner jacket, this is true. Surprised me the first time I read it on black tie guide as well, but figure I'll never be at a black tie event in the tropics anyway. I'd never do it myself but to each his own.
post #104 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

Good additions for the most part. My list ended up being more abridged than intended.
If you're at a black tie event in the tropics and already wearing a white dinner jacket, this is true. Surprised me the first time I read it on black tie guide as well, but figure I'll never be at a black tie event in the tropics anyway. I'd never do it myself but to each his own.

I think it was probably intended for the most casual black tie events (just as the ivory DJ and even DB came about for more casual settings). However, those norms were from a time when black tie was the standard dress for any evening social function, so there was such a thing as "more casual black tie". Today, however, black tie is thought of more as a degree of formality than a function of what time an event is called for so this idea goes out the window to a degree.
post #105 of 142
It's interesting that what started as a garment/outfit for private dinner parties has morphed into one of the most formal forms of dress for men. One DNA branch became the black tie rig being discussed here and, while not as common as it was once, not extinct either. The other branch went the smoking jacket route which now verges on costume.

In both cases, the underlying purpose (attendance at formal events or smoking in the company of friends at home) has been in decline. Seems logical that with such a gradual decline of use, standards would loosen.
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