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The perfect tuxedo except for one thing... - Page 5

post #61 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

When you see somebody wearing a single-vented, notch-lapeled tux, how often are they wearing patent shoes, a proper evening vest or cummerbund, and a proper evening shirt with studs? Half the time they'll even be wearing a long tie.

If someone is renting the entire ensemble, then patent shoes will be quite common, as that's what tux rental places usually have as an option. As to the rest, I think it depends. If one already owns a tux when they first make their way here it's much easier to add on new accessories (things that aren't too expensive next to the suit itself) than to replace it with something comparable if it was expensive. And better to see people doing what they can within certain limits than just saying "fuck it".
post #62 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacking jacket View Post

It depends how you're built, but zero vents on a slim fitted jacket for me is a nightmare, to the extent I'm having a jacket with zero vents vented.
If it concerns you buy a straight black jacket with a single vent, reconstruct it and have it silken (lapels, buttons and pants). It will cost more than $1000 (alot of tailoring) but you'll have your single vent.

And why wouldn't you simply go MTM at that point?
Slightly more cost effective and you get a designer label (if that is worth anything to you) but depends on the tailor
post #63 of 142
Is this seriously still being debated?

Under no circumstances should a dinner jacket have a center vent. The historical, customary reasons aren't even important. Single vents are generally sub-optimal features used on cheaper RTW jackets to save manufacturing costs and make alterations easier. Hence, they don't belong on a dinner jacket, which should be an inherently nice piece of clothing (or do its best to appear so). If you want vents, side vents are the correct choice.

Before some Ivy/Trad freak chimes: yes, single vents are appropriate for jackets in the American Trad style. But that's really not relevant here.
post #64 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Is this seriously still being debated?

Under no circumstances should a dinner jacket have a center vent. The historical, customary reasons aren't even important. Single vents are generally sub-optimal features used on cheaper RTW jackets to save manufacturing costs and make alterations easier. Hence, they don't belong on a dinner jacket, which should be an inherently nice piece of clothing (or do its best to appear so). If you want vents, side vents are the correct choice.

Before some Ivy/Trad freak chimes: yes, single vents are appropriate for jackets in the American Trad style. But that's really not relevant here.

Says you.

Mind you, I don't prefer single vent, in general.

My contention: Dismissing a tux as inferior or wrong because of a single vent is equivalent to dismissing a normal suit as inferior or wrong because you don't like the shade of grey. It can dictate your own purchases, but it doesn't make others' wrong or bad.

If a jacket functions with a single vent, as you acknowledge they do (even though you don't like it), so does a tux.

As far as your "Trad" designation, we could equally designate your tastes as british or italian or what-have-you.
post #65 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Is this seriously still being debated?

Under no circumstances should a dinner jacket have a center vent. The historical, customary reasons aren't even important. Single vents are generally sub-optimal features used on cheaper RTW jackets to save manufacturing costs and make alterations easier. Hence, they don't belong on a dinner jacket, which should be an inherently nice piece of clothing (or do its best to appear so). If you want vents, side vents are the correct choice.

Before some Ivy/Trad freak chimes: yes, single vents are appropriate for jackets in the American Trad style. But that's really not relevant here.

I don't know that I agree with that. How much is there to be saved by using a center vent vs side vents? And I've always paid the same having a RTW jacket altered because, regardless of vent style, the alteration is coming from the side seams.
post #66 of 142

How easy would it be for a tailor to convert a single-vented tuxedo jacket into a ventless jacket? Is it something that requires a bit more experience to do? Also, after the conversion, is there anything that would give it away as a jacket that was originally center-vented, or would it look pretty seamless?

 

I ask because I bought a peak lapel tuxedo from BB on fairly short notice last month for a wedding, and its only "flaw" is the fact that it has a center vent. It's too late now to modify it for the wedding (not that it would have mattered much; everyone else was in a rental tux with notch lapels and plastic shoes), but I still want it "proper" for any possible future black tie events.

post #67 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke42 View Post

but I still want it "proper" for any possible future black tie events.

Unless the SF police is there, don't sweat it. Nobody will notice much less care.
post #68 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

My contention: Dismissing a tux as inferior or wrong because of a single vent is equivalent to dismissing a normal suit as inferior or wrong because you don't like the shade of grey. It can dictate your own purchases, but it doesn't make others' wrong or bad.

Yes, it does make it wrong and bad. We are not talking about personal preferences, but the standard of black tie dress. The underlying principles driving black tie dress, as well as its individual rules, are well-established. You are speaking from ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js4design View Post

I don't know that I agree with that. How much is there to be saved by using a center vent vs side vents? And I've always paid the same having a RTW jacket altered because, regardless of vent style, the alteration is coming from the side seams.

Of course it is cheaper to make one vent versus two. You aren't just cutting slits, after all. Each vent requires extra fabric and must be finished properly. Altering a side-vented jacket can be costlier and take more time because the side vents have to be re-finished if the jacket is altered at the side seams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke42 View Post

How easy would it be for a tailor to convert a single-vented tuxedo jacket into a ventless jacket? Is it something that requires a bit more experience to do? Also, after the conversion, is there anything that would give it away as a jacket that was originally center-vented, or would it look pretty seamless?

It is easy and it will look exactly as if it were unvented to begin with. Assuming your tailor isn't an idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke42 View Post

I ask because I bought a peak lapel tuxedo from BB on fairly short notice last month for a wedding, and its only "flaw" is the fact that it has a center vent. It's too late now to modify it for the wedding (not that it would have mattered much; everyone else was in a rental tux with notch lapels and plastic shoes), but I still want it "proper" for any possible future black tie events.

Closing the vent is a simple operation. I bet you can find a decent tailor to do it for you in a day's time.
post #69 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Yes, it does make it wrong and bad. We are not talking about personal preferences, but the standard of black tie dress. The underlying principles driving black tie dress, as well as its individual rules, are well-established. You are speaking from ignorance.

For at least the last 50 years, and likely much longer, well executed black tie dress has varied from the singular standard that you consider proper.

This is evidenced by clothing produced by very proper and highly regarding establishments and makers over this time frame, and also worn by people that know how to dress.

You have a narrow minded tunnel vision of, let's say, the way that Huntsman has does done it for the last XYZ years is the only proper way. And yet you exclude all of the other evidence. By limiting the set of makers and wearers to those who comply with the standard of your choosing, you seek to make your point. But anyone can do that to make any point.

If the peak producers of Savile Row are the only ones who participate as the standard setters, it's just snobbery (and excessively geographically selective, considering the make-up of the users of this forum).
post #70 of 142
For any notion of black tie to be sensible, it must comport with "a narrow minded tunnel vision."

After all, it is a standard of attire. Any fool can look back over the past fifty years and note all the different ways that standard has been interpreted (or ignored). But the hard work is in combing through the garbage and distilling what the standard really is--or should be. Failure to do so would make virtually all things permissible, so long as they have been done (and if they haven't, why not be the first?).
post #71 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Of course it is cheaper to make one vent versus two. You aren't just cutting slits, after all. Each vent requires extra fabric and must be finished properly. Altering a side-vented jacket can be costlier and take more time because the side vents have to be re-finished if the jacket is altered at the side seams.

I don't doubt that there might be some cost savings, but I very seriously doubt that savings is significant enough to dictate stylistic choices of even mid level RTW for the sake of saving maybe a few bucks. Taking a quick look on the BB website you'll have a hard time finding a side vented tux, and with some rigs at $1900 the use of center vents was not a cost cutting measure.
post #72 of 142
First of all, at the quantities a RTW brand produces, every bit of savings counts (also keep in mind, a $1900 retail price at Brooks means as little as $300-400 in labor/material costs, half of which is probably for the materials). Second, you can get away with using single vents more often now since people don't know better.

At the end, there is no doubt that single vents are cheaper to make and that is the reason why so many RTW jackets use them. Aside from the financial reality of it, sources like Flusser confirm that is how the market has developed. One would not dream of having an expensive bespoke jacket made with single vents.
post #73 of 142
If that reasoning were sound, then it would apply to BB's suits as well. Of the 4 fits offered, 2 have side vents. In fact, the cheapest suit offered on their website is sold as separates and the $448 jacket comes with side vents. Right or wrong, the single vent is a style choice, not a shortcut.
post #74 of 142
Foo is very emotionally invested in the superiority of his tastes and opinions.

"But the hard work is in combing through the garbage and distilling what the standard really is--or should be."

Give me a break...

"Second, you can get away with using single vents more often now since people don't know better."

I wonder who these amazing beings are that qualify as having the right opinion, and knowing better.

The fact that so many are OK with the alternative to your solution doesn't factor into it's acceptability? Places like Paul Stuart (mentioned pages ago), are not high enough on the spectrum to qualify as legit?

You can dress up your statements as fancily as you like, but it sounds so much like "Paul Stuart and Brooks and Bond etc is stupid, but Rubinacci is good! I wear Rubinacci! I am good!"
post #75 of 142
Do you think I originated the idea that dinner jackets should be unvented or, if necessary, side-vented? Give me a break. It sounds like you're an idiot with a chip on your shoulder. A truly terrible combination. Worse than a single vent in a dinner jacket.
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