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The perfect tuxedo except for one thing... - Page 4

post #46 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by comrade View Post

I don't know how log it takes to establish a "tradition". I own a Paul Stuart Tuxedo that is more than 40 years old. It has a single vent and
is classical Ivy in cut.

Well, when we are talking about the origins of the tuxedo, we are talking about over 100 years. IMO, a single vent on a tux is the worst of all worlds, though if you like that classic Ivy look, then I suppose it fits.
post #47 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Well, when we are talking about the origins of the tuxedo, we are talking about over 100 years. IMO, a single vent on a tux is the worst of all worlds, though if you like that classic Ivy look, then I suppose it fits.

Of course, black tie was derived from white tie and as has been pointed out (either here or another thread) a tailcoat uses a single vented design.
post #48 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

Of course, black tie was derived from white tie and as has been pointed out (either here or another thread) a tailcoat uses a single vented design.

Regardless, it's traditionally wrong on a tuxedo. Single vents evolved from sporting wear--they help the jacket fit well on horseback. They have no place on a tuxedo, even though they are (unfortunately, IMO) fairly common.

On another note, I was helping my brother shop for a tuxedo recently, and I'd say a good 60% of the offerings out there are notch lapel, with the rest split between peak and shawl collar. Utter abominations; why anyone would choose a notch lapel on a tux is beyond me, but apparently they do, in overwhelming quantities.
post #49 of 142
So, in your tortured logic the full-dress tailcoat retains the single vent, a verstige of its'
origins as a riding coat, but the presumably more evolved tuxedo may not.


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=full+dress+white+tie&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=C76B3F6F445C4806237C9D6CA10C0F7ADEC39B83&selectedIndex=43
post #50 of 142
We're not discussing what is and is not traditional in white tie, which is a completely different animal. We are discussing what is traditional in black tie--and that is no vent, or occasionally double vented. Single vents are by no means traditional or proper.

"Tortured" logic or not, there is a long tradition to black tie, and that tradition is no or double vents.

From BlackTieGuide:
Quote:
The original dinner jackets were made without vents then later offered with side vents. While side vents provide easier access to trouser pockets and are more comfortable to sit in, they can also make the jacket less slimming and somewhat compromise the intended formality of the tuxedo.

The center (aka single) vent is unacceptable not only because of its sporty pedigree (it was designed for horseback riding) but also because it opens up when a man reaches into his trouser pockets thus exposing the seat of his pants and often a white patch of shirt to boot. Despite its inappropriateness, the single vent is becoming more common on dinner jackets as mainstream manufacturers save money by patterning their tuxedos on standard suit styles. Fortunately, a good tailor can convert these jackets into ventless models by closing the vent.
post #51 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Regardless, it's traditionally wrong on a tuxedo. Single vents evolved from sporting wear--they help the jacket fit well on horseback. They have no place on a tuxedo, even though they are (unfortunately, IMO) fairly common.

On another note, I was helping my brother shop for a tuxedo recently, and I'd say a good 60% of the offerings out there are notch lapel, with the rest split between peak and shawl collar. Utter abominations; why anyone would choose a notch lapel on a tux is beyond me, but apparently they do, in overwhelming quantities.

All this blather about the derivation of certain coats is so tiresome. Do not feel compelled to heed the "no vent, peak lapel" mantra that has become SF code.

Clothing evolves. What is the logic of picking 1940 or 1890 as the time at which things were "correct"?

It's like the "American Dad" joke about the amish... "1880 is the perfect amount of technology, we'll stop right here."
post #52 of 142
For me it's not so much about the traditional rules per se, but rather details that differentiate a dinner jacket from a normal lounge suit jacket. If you get notch lapels, vents, flaps, etc...you move closer and closer to simply having a black suit jacket with silk facings. I like a tuxedo to be its own distinct garment.

It's easier for manufacturers to make a tux that's just their normal suit jacket pattern but with facings, so many of them tend to push that on an unwitting public. But if you have the ability to choose, you don't have to follow the lemmings off the cliff.
post #53 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

All this blather about the derivation of certain coats is so tiresome.

I mostly agree with this. The history of a garment can be useful in some contexts, but is usually not terribly relevant. Especially when it comes to black tie, where there is such a defined "traditional way". It really doesn't matter what the history was--it is how it is. My point in bringing up the history of the tux is that it has remained relatively unchanged for a very long time--longer than most other forms of dress--and thus that there is a more strongly defined norm than is the case for more casual clothes.

Certainly there are plenty of ways to get "creative" with black tie. Though 99.9% of them end in disaster, and it usually is not appropriate anyways. Unless you are Vox and regularly throw or attend black-tie events at private residences, you'd almost certainly be better off sticking with the classics.

A center vent is not going to be the end of the world assuming that the rest of the tux looks good. But let's not pretend that it is traditional, as it definitively is not.
post #54 of 142

I would not buy a tuxedo with a vents because i couldn't feel good in tuxedo which is not correct.

post #55 of 142
A notch lapel is more traditional than you might think. They've always been around. I still don't think they look very good, but there it is.
post #56 of 142
Valid point, there are criteria that make a suit a tuxedo. I'd pick 1) the lapel shinies; 2) the leg stripe shinies; 3) the covered buttons; 4) the vest/cumberbund; 5) shiny or well polished shoes, pumps or oxford; 6) bow tie; 7) black suit white shirt; 8) Frunch cuffs, cuff links, shirt button thingies

Some people here would throw peak lapels and ventlessness onto that list, but I think the above is more than enough to make it a tuxedo.
post #57 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

Valid point, there are criteria that make a suit a tuxedo. I'd pick 1) the lapel shinies; 2) the leg stripe shinies; 3) the covered buttons; 4) the vest/cumberbund; 5) shiny or well polished shoes, pumps or oxford; 6) bow tie; 7) black suit white shirt; 8) Frunch cuffs, cuff links, shirt button thingies

Some people here would throw peak lapels and ventlessness onto that list, but I think the above is more than enough to make it a tuxedo.

I would agree, with three exceptions:

1. Midnight is just as correct as black for the suit.

2. Covered buttons aren't required; while they are far more common it isn't exactly a rule or anything.

3. While the lapel and trouser stripe must be silk, they don't need to be shiny. Grosgrain is just as acceptable as satin and it has a much more matte finish.
post #58 of 142
I was using "shiny" to describe the group of different materials, but granted they are not necessarily shiny.
post #59 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

Valid point, there are criteria that make a suit a tuxedo. I'd pick 1) the lapel shinies; 2) the leg stripe shinies; 3) the covered buttons; 4) the vest/cumberbund; 5) shiny or well polished shoes, pumps or oxford; 6) bow tie; 7) black suit white shirt; 8) Frunch cuffs, cuff links, shirt button thingies

Some people here would throw peak lapels and ventlessness onto that list, but I think the above is more than enough to make it a tuxedo.

When you see somebody wearing a single-vented, notch-lapeled tux, how often are they wearing patent shoes, a proper evening vest or cummerbund, and a proper evening shirt with studs? Half the time they'll even be wearing a long tie.
post #60 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

I was using "shiny" to describe the group of different materials, but granted they are not necessarily shiny.

Fair enough. Almost didn't put that in my list since even grosgrain can appear shiny, but yea, I agree.
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