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The perfect tuxedo except for one thing... - Page 8

post #106 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertie View Post

It's interesting that what started as a garment/outfit for private dinner parties has morphed into one of the most formal forms of dress for men. One DNA branch became the black tie rig being discussed here and, while not as common as it was once, not extinct either. The other branch went the smoking jacket route which now verges on costume.

In both cases, the underlying purpose (attendance at formal events or smoking in the company of friends at home) has been in decline. Seems logical that with such a gradual decline of use, standards would loosen.

Well, the black tie rig replaced the white tie rig for the special occasions where one used to wear white tie and I'd agree black tie is worn less today than white tie probably would have been for the well off in the early part of the 20th century. If by "standards," you mean general knowledge of what is correct and caring about these things, then I'd agree they've declined. I think this is less of case of rules changing and more a case of rules not being enforced to the same degree they used to be.

From my perspective, this is tragic. I think that when you have few opportunities to do something, you should do it right. I'd apply this to putting on a black tie rig.
post #107 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

Well, the black tie rig replaced the white tie rig for the special occasions where one used to wear white tie and I'd agree black tie is worn less today than white tie probably would have been for the well off in the early part of the 20th century. If by "standards," you mean general knowledge of what is correct and caring about these things, then I'd agree they've declined. I think this is less of case of rules changing and more a case of rules not being enforced to the same degree they used to be.

From my perspective, this is tragic. I think that when you have few opportunities to do something, you should do it right. I'd apply this to putting on a black tie rig.

Probably the best opportunity to see the gradual decline of white tie is the lobby of the Millennium Biltmore hotel in Los Angeles. In the early years of the motion picture industry, the Oscars were hosted at the Biltmore and one can see that it was, at inception, a white tie event. As you go through the years, you see fewer and fewer in tailcoats and white bows and more and more donning traditional black tie.

And of course one of the greatest film examples of formalwear done right (IMO) is the Kevin Costner/Robert DeNiro/Sean Connery film "The Untouchables". There are two scenes depicting men in formalwear. The first is a private dinner event hosted by Al Capone, in which you see several (correct) variations on black tie, showing men whose dress all conformed to the rules but made the choices discussed above. The second showed DeNiro at the opera, in white tie. This was also completely correct. Aside from showing formalwear as intended it also showed the difference between situations calling for black vs. white tie. Subtle, I know, and surely something which would have been glossed over had Giorgio Armani not been commissioned to provide the wardrobe.
post #108 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

Well, the black tie rig replaced the white tie rig for the special occasions where one used to wear white tie and I'd agree black tie is worn less today than white tie probably would have been for the well off in the early part of the 20th century. If by "standards," you mean general knowledge of what is correct and caring about these things, then I'd agree they've declined. I think this is less of case of rules changing and more a case of rules not being enforced to the same degree they used to be.

From my perspective, this is tragic. I think that when you have few opportunities to do something, you should do it right. I'd apply this to putting on a black tie rig.

Yes that's what I meant by standards. Both elements contribute as well: knowledge and caring enough to apply those standards. With few role models today it is daunting to learn about proper dress if you have to find all the info for yourself. I can understand that.

What is less clear is the not caring part.
post #109 of 142
Double
post #110 of 142
Ah, so the right person has to say single vents are wrong and bad on a dinner jacket. I get it.
post #111 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

Most people don't bother to debate against the logical pretzels you construct to justify a lot of what you say, but I stand by my point.

This is true of Foo. I remember one particular instance when he came up with some embarrassingly bullshit pseudo-theory about why Modernist furniture is so great.

However, he is right about vents and tuxes.
post #112 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

Most people don't bother to debate against the logical pretzels you construct to justify a lot of what you say, but I stand by my point.

This is true of Foo. I remember one particular instance when he came up with some embarrassingly bullshit pseudo-theory about why Modernist furniture is so great.

However, he is right about vents and tuxes.
post #113 of 142
If by "embarrassing," you mean for those who didn't understand, then yes.
post #114 of 142
This is the funny thing: you're so arrogant and patronizing that you actually believe that we don't understand you because you're so rarified. You know, some one us also have shiny degrees from top schools -- some of us even have degrees from better schools than Brown and Chicago, believe it or not! -- as well as a grounding in Logic and 20th-century philosophy.

Don't get me wrong, I like almost everything about you; but your one fatal flaw is an overestimation of your own intelligence. It's so often said that you cannot be truly stylish if your personality isn't just so. Humility is the key component of style; a lesson that perhaps you'll learn one day.
post #115 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

If someone has a single vented tuxedo that they like, of course they should not throw it away and buy a new one (though getting the vent sewn shut is a reasonable option). The degree to which people care about standards and whether there are standards are two separate questions. I think that sometimes those arguing against standards confuse these points, often to the detriment of discussion here.

1. There are standards of dress and any attempt to deride such standards as mere preferences or deny that they exist is incorrect and ignorant. If there are no standards, then every thread should only have the response "Wear what you like" and this forum is pointless. There are pretty clear standards on how to wear black tie, good sources such as www.blacktieguide.com, etc.

2. In the real world, there is limited enforcement of these standards and many people either do not notice or do not care. The social consequences of small deviations (e.g. single vented tuxedo vs. wearing jeans and a baseball cap to a black tie event) from these standards are likely to be minimal.
The examples you're citing are for the most part not things I would consider "deviations" from a standard but rather different options that are considered acceptable within the standard (though I cannot see a point collar shirt ever being remotely correct with black tie). Black tie is largely a uniform but there are some choices one may make within it. As I understand it, these are the main options:

1. Black or midnight blue
2. Grosgrain or satin lapels and trouser detailing
3. Peak or shawl lapels (shirt choice comes in here since I believe a wing collar should only be worn with peak lapels)
4. Pleated or marcella front shirt
5. Pleated or plain front trousers
6. Cummerbund or vest
7. Shape of self-tie bow tie used
8. Ventless or double vents (I am on the fence on this one as I really do believe ventless is more correct)

If you are supposed to choose between peak or shawl lapels when picking a tux, notch lapels would be a deviation. Same thing applies to vents. Single vent is clearly a deviation. I'd agree that some of my points and yours may alter the look to a greater extent, but they do so in a way that is still considered proper.

What about the appropriate configurations for the waistcoat?
post #116 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

This is the funny thing: you're so arrogant and patronizing that you actually believe that we don't understand you because you're so rarified. You know, some one us also have shiny degrees from top schools -- some of us even have degrees from better schools than Brown and Chicago, believe it or not! -- as well as a grounding in Logic and 20th-century philosophy.

Don't get me wrong, I like almost everything about you; but your one fatal flaw is an overestimation of your own intelligence. It's so often said that you cannot be truly stylish if your personality isn't just so. Humility is the key component of style; a lesson that perhaps you'll learn one day.

What's funny is that others feel the need to make issue out of the schools I went to, how I make money, who I married, what I look like, how many times I went to Italy, etc. It's laughable to test me on my credentials and then act outraged when I attempt to answer the inquiry. The truth is, it should all be irrelevant. I could not care less where you went to school and how it compares to my own education. What should count are the thoughts and ideas shared. I have never challenged someone on the mere basis of "expertise" or authority, unless they themselves assert it as persuasive point. I defy you to find one instance where I used my educational background to drive an argument. No, that sort of stuff is what others fixate on. It's apparent it isn't what I'm saying that many have a problem with, but the fact it is me saying it.

Take the ridiculous dialogue in this thread. I merely pointed out what is obvious and conventional wisdom to many: that, for various reasons, single vents are bad on a dinner jacket. Then, I get stuck responding to ad hominem argumentation that makes issue out of the mere fact I use Rubinacci as a tailor and attacks a claim to expertise that I never made. That is either idiocy or gross prejudice at work--I have zero tolerance for the former when it is belligerent and zero tolerance for the latter under any circumstances.
post #117 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

This is the funny thing: you're so arrogant and patronizing that you actually believe that we don't understand you because you're so rarified. You know, some one us also have shiny degrees from top schools -- some of us even have degrees from better schools than Brown and Chicago, believe it or not! -- as well as a grounding in Logic and 20th-century philosophy.

Don't get me wrong, I like almost everything about you; but your one fatal flaw is an overestimation of your own intelligence. It's so often said that you cannot be truly stylish if your personality isn't just so. Humility is the key component of style; a lesson that perhaps you'll learn one day.

What he said.

I know it's not big of me, but I can't resist, if only because I've been called ignorant and an idiot by Foo in this thread. But I'm happy to report that I fall into the better schools category. Engineering degree too. But if only I could understand tuxedos!!!!!!
post #118 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

It's apparent it isn't what I'm saying that many have a problem with, but the fact it is me saying it.

I can only speak for myself, but No. It's what you're saying, and how you say it.
post #119 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post

What he said.

I know it's not big of me, but I can't resist, if only because I've been called ignorant and an idiot by Foo in this thread. But I'm happy to report that I fall into the better schools category. Engineering degree too. But if only I could understand tuxedos!!!!!!

I said you were speaking from ignorance, but I didn't call you a fool. Maybe you should have paid more attention to reading comprehension at your "better" schools.
post #120 of 142
Oh, I did call you an idiot, but that was the least I could do after your hopelessly vacuous ad hominem tirade.
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