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Advice: What to tell my girlfriend - Page 4

post #46 of 81
Make her read this thread. Twice.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/275650/the-state-of-black-tie-your-observations
post #47 of 81
Show her this thread!
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiger View Post

Now that's some damned good advice.

No, that's the advice you wanted to hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

2) if she ever threatens to be embarrassed by you, to me this is kind of red flag manipulative non-keeper stuff, but obviously that part is up to you

First thing that came to my mind too.
post #49 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by HughJ View Post


No, that's the advice you wanted to hear.
First thing that came to my mind too.

 

As opposed to the advice you wanted to hear?

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elegantly Wasted View Post

Make her read this thread. Twice.
http://www.styleforum.net/t/275650/the-state-of-black-tie-your-observations

 

I haven't gone over the entirety of the thread, but isn't one of the main observations that black tie is no longer treated the way it used to be (i.e. the vast, vast majority of attendees will are dressed similarly to the way the OP's girlfriend is suggesting?).

 

Regardless of the proper or classical definition of what black tie is, I'm of the opinion that a person should always be dressed in function of the event and the people who will be attending said event. This does not mean you should wear a potato sack suit because everyone else has poorly fitted clothing, but your clothing should not be radically different from what is expected.

 

For example, I work in a large law firm that is known for being very conservative. If I am meeting clients that are in finance or banking, I of course wear a suit and tie. However, there are some clients for whom "formal wear" is (a) wearing a dress shirt and (b) tucking said shirt into their jeans (some of these people are upper management representing Fortune 500 companies) and if I met these clients in a suit and tie, I'd either make them uncomfortable or be laughed out of the room.  

 

Just because something is a "client meeting" or a "black tie event" does not mean that there is only one way to dress and everyone who does not follow this rigid definition is wrong. Years ago maybe. Now, not so much. You wouldn't wear a top hat, monocle, cane and pocket watch to a dinner party, would you? I think your girlfriend's concerns are legitimate, but how correct she is remains to be seen. If it were the opposite, and she wanted to go to one of your formal events in jeans and a tank top, wouldn't you object? Wouldn't you feel just a little embarrassed?  

 

I find all the calls to "dress however you want" to be a touch ridiculous when they're coming from a crowd notorious for shaming people for dressing "incorrectly".

 

 

post #50 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddsg View Post

I haven't gone over the entirety of the thread, but isn't one of the main observations that black tie is no longer treated the way it used to be (i.e. the vast, vast majority of attendees will are dressed similarly to the way the OP's girlfriend is suggesting?).

Regardless of the proper or classical definition of what black tie is, I'm of the opinion that a person should always be dressed in function of the event and the people who will be attending said event. This does not mean you should wear a potato sack suit because everyone else has poorly fitted clothing, but your clothing should not be radically different from what is expected.

For example, I work in a large law firm that is known for being very conservative. If I am meeting clients that are in finance or banking, I of course wear a suit and tie. However, there are some clients for whom "formal wear" is (a) wearing a dress shirt and (b) tucking said shirt into their jeans (some of these people are upper management representing Fortune 500 companies) and if I met these clients in a suit and tie, I'd either make them uncomfortable or be laughed out of the room.  

Just because something is a "client meeting" or a "black tie event" does not mean that there is only one way to dress and everyone who does not follow this rigid definition is wrong. Years ago maybe. Now, not so much. You wouldn't wear a top hat, monocle, cane and pocket watch to a dinner party, would you? I think your girlfriend's concerns are legitimate, but how correct she is remains to be seen. If it were the opposite, and she wanted to go to one of your formal events in jeans and a tank top, wouldn't you object? Wouldn't you feel just a little embarrassed?  

I find all the calls to "dress however you want" to be a touch ridiculous when they're coming from a crowd notorious for shaming people for dressing "incorrectly".

A "client meeting" and a "black tie event" are two different things. There are so many types of Clients and of Meetings as you mentioned, that you have to have to adapt to each situation.

Black tie on the other hand, has rules to be followed. If you want to dress like a "cowboy" you wear jeans- not corduroy, a hat- not a baseball cap, and so on. Same happens with formal attire.
post #51 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddsg View Post

As opposed to the advice you wanted to hear?

Not sure I follow you here. HughJ was implying that Craiger is -- knowingly or unknowingly -- fishing for an excuse to follow the line of least resistance, and so when someone suggests something to that effect, he tells himself (tries to tell himself?) that it's "damned good advice". It's basically a case of confirmation bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddsg View Post

there are some clients for whom "formal wear" is (a) wearing a dress shirt and (b) tucking said shirt into their jeans (some of these people are upper management representing Fortune 500 companies) and if I met these clients in a suit and tie, I'd either make them uncomfortable or be laughed out of the room.

That last part paints a very disturbing image. It's like you're letting yourself be defined by the nerd patrol ... lol8[1].gif
post #52 of 81
As someone with actual experience nearly the same exact situation, I can tell you what worked for me. My fiancee (now wife) wanted my groomsmen and me to be dressed as such:



Or close to it anyway, she had a strong preference towards a red long (FIH) tie. She said no one wears bow ties anymore, and cummerbunds are for old fat men. I countered that I wouldn't wear a long tie, or anything in red, unless I was allowed to make something disappear (because it would make me look like a magician).

I took her to a store (black tie in Philadelphia) that specializes in black tie attire. The salesman there put both options (red and traditional black) up on a mannequin, and it was pretty clear that one looked silly and one looked good.

In her head, she was imagining something classy, and it really didn't look that way in person - if you take her to a store and put together the outfit she's thinking about, it will probably look dumb, and she will realize it.

Of course, it could totally backfire and she'll think it looks great and then you're really screwed... Just my 2 cents...

here's what I wore for the wedding...

post #53 of 81

Ugh, can we stop with the "Happy Wife Happy Life" comments? I think this is some of the worst advice on this forum, especially in this situation. She sounds extremely controlling. If you can't convince her that your outfit is fine based on pictures from blacktieguide.com, then I think this relationship is over. Sure you can give in and wear what she wants, but you'll be doing that for the rest of your relationship when it comes to attire and probably everything else.

post #54 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivar View Post


Not sure I follow you here. HughJ was implying that Craiger is -- knowingly or unknowingly -- fishing for an excuse to follow the line of least resistance, and so when someone suggests something to that effect, he tells himself (tries to tell himself?) that it's "damned good advice". It's basically a case of confirmation bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
That last part paints a very disturbing image. It's like you're letting yourself be defined by the nerd patrol ... lol8[1].gif

 

Styleforum is a gigantic exercise in confirmation bias. This entire thread is very pro "do what you want and screw what other people(in this case the girlfriend) think" simply because the way the OP wishes to dress falls directly under Styleforum's infallible dress laws. Go to the thread where a guy wants to wear a black shirt/pant/tie combo (which I admit, I find absolutely hideous) to go clubbing and the direction of the advice instantly shifts.

 

Had the OP been the one wanting to wear a notched lapel suit with long tie and the girlfriend been the one pushing for the peak lapel/bow tie/cummerbund, I'm quite sure the advice would have shifted from "dump the girl because she's telling you how to dress" to "marry that girl". I have no problem with people giving recommendations on what works and what doesn't, which is after an important purpose of this forum. But let's try to not mask our attempts of enforcing style doctrine as anything other than what it is. 

 

As for the "nerd patrol" dictating what I wear, when the client is paying several hundred dollars per hour for even our most junior lawyer, we do what we can to make them feel comfortable laugh.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elegantly Wasted View Post


A "client meeting" and a "black tie event" are two different things. There are so many types of Clients and of Meetings as you mentioned, that you have to have to adapt to each situation.
Black tie on the other hand, has rules to be followed. If you want to dress like a "cowboy" you wear jeans- not corduroy, a hat- not a baseball cap, and so on. Same happens with formal attire.

Black tie has/had rules to be followed back when black tie had a single defined definition that was respected by most, if not all, attendees (or rather the organizers that use the term). Just because the invitation says "black tie" does not mean that you should blindly go for the full patent leather, winged collar, cummerbund, bow tie combo if the event isn't actually calling for it.  You can call a strip club an artistic dance studio all you want, it doesn't change what goes on inside. 

 

Your cowboy analogy can be seen the same way. Were you to go to a "cowboy" event, would you show up in leather assless chaps and riding spurs with pistols strapped to your belt and an ammo belt strung across your chest? Maybe if you were going to a rodeo, but try to pull an outfit like that at anything less and you'd come off as downright insulting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I take no pleasure in the current use of the term black tie nor in this whole "maverick CEO who never wears a suit" trend that's been going on. That does not change the fact that that is where things are. Are there still true black tie events? Undoubtedly, and should you attend one, you should dress appropriately. From what I understand, the OP's girlfriend is quite confident that this is not that.

post #55 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgeldner View Post

As someone with actual experience nearly the same exact situation, I can tell you what worked for me. My fiancee (now wife) wanted my groomsmen and me to be dressed as such:

Or close to it anyway, she had a strong preference towards a red long (FIH) tie. She said no one wears bow ties anymore, and cummerbunds are for old fat men. I countered that I wouldn't wear a long tie, or anything in red, unless I was allowed to make something disappear (because it would make me look like a magician).

lol.
post #56 of 81
Haven't read the whole thread but without having seen the actual outfit in question couldn't the reason behind the girlfriend being controlling and wanting the change the outfit be that it looks dated/doesn't fit and so forth? Would be nice to see an actual fit pic of the outfit we're defending here wink.gif
post #57 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivar View Post

Not sure I follow you here. HughJ was implying that Craiger is -- knowingly or unknowingly -- fishing for an excuse to follow the line of least resistance, and so when someone suggests something to that effect, he tells himself (tries to tell himself?) that it's "damned good advice". It's basically a case of confirmation bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
That last part paints a very disturbing image. It's like you're letting yourself be defined by the nerd patrol ... lol8[1].gif

Precisely. There is a consensus here, yet the advice from the guy with 8 posts (no offence) is cherry picked as damned good.

I think the the control issue is larger in the long view, though.
post #58 of 81
I don't think the "control issue" exists. We've been talking about brides, but this isn't about weddings, (OP didn't say he's getting married, right? Just that his girlfriend doesn't like his tux?). Which leads me to the following conclusion:

Commenting on the strength a relationship between two people we've never met because one person wants the other to wear something other than his ideal seems like internet bullshit. Just sayin'.

OP - relationships are built on compromise. That means you'll have to take some dives and so will she. If she wants to dress you like a clown (or, in my case, a magician), you'll have to decide if that's worth burning one of your matches by doing what you want anyway. The only way around having a fight about it is to lead her to the conclusion that you were right all along traditional attire is better looking, and the only way I've found to do that is to show her photos of people she thinks are fashionable (and you've got some good options from recent awards shows, finally - Bradley Cooper and P. Diddy at the 2012 Oscars, Ryan Seacrest at any awards show, etc) wearing something traditional. George Clooney works too - their fits tend not to be spectacular, but they're getting the accessories at least close enough for this purpose (bow tie and waist covering). Make sure your good and bad examples are the same person though - in case she is biased toward one of the guys you show her. Black tie guide is useful, but it's hard to tell a girl that you're going to wear something because it's the rules. Women's fashion doesn't work like that, and at least for me, that argument gets you told you dress like an old man.

It's the same argument I had before going MTM for suiting. She was upset that I "hadn't exhausted all my options" with good brands before deciding to get something from a "no-name."

I mean, just compare this:



to this:

post #59 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgeldner View Post

As someone with actual experience nearly the same exact situation, I can tell you what worked for me. My fiancee (now wife) wanted my groomsmen and me to be dressed as such:

Or close to it anyway, she had a strong preference towards a red long (FIH) tie. She said no one wears bow ties anymore, and cummerbunds are for old fat men. I countered that I wouldn't wear a long tie, or anything in red, unless I was allowed to make something disappear (because it would make me look like a magician).
I took her to a store (black tie in Philadelphia) that specializes in black tie attire. The salesman there put both options (red and traditional black) up on a mannequin, and it was pretty clear that one looked silly and one looked good.
In her head, she was imagining something classy, and it really didn't look that way in person - if you take her to a store and put together the outfit she's thinking about, it will probably look dumb, and she will realize it.
Of course, it could totally backfire and she'll think it looks great and then you're really screwed... Just my 2 cents...
here's what I wore for the wedding...

This is very good advice. If you both feel so strongly about it, it's best to see examples, perhaps even on yourself. If you do it right, it should be clear to her that you'll look good in what you want to wear.
post #60 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgeldner View Post

I don't think the "control issue" exists. We've been talking about brides, but this isn't about weddings, (OP didn't say he's getting married, right? Just that his girlfriend doesn't like his tux?). Which leads me to the following conclusion:
Commenting on the strength a relationship between two people we've never met because one person wants the other to wear something other than his ideal seems like internet bullshit. Just sayin'.
Maybe you missed the part that she said she'd be embarrassed to be with him if he wore the outfit he wanted to?

Maybe you also missed realizing how you can only reply based on what information you're given? He made her sound really bitchy. If she isn't, then that's his fault for writing it that way.
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