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Official: STAR WARS THREAD. These are the droids you're looking for. **WARNING MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS!** - Page 103

post #1531 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Nailed it.

 

I've never before in my life felt the desire to be a gender warrior.  But the stupidity of some of the criticism of the Rey character sorta makes me want to go get a membership card.. 

 

This is a world in which magic space time is regularly used to further the plot, and where a good number of the main characters have magical powers, ffs.

post #1532 of 2848
Thread Starter 
Fok did you see my post in reply to you on Kylo vs Finn:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Fok I'm surprised you have as much a problem with Fin briefly holding his own against Kylo as you do. The explanation is the exact same that you gave moments before for Rey. Kylo was badly wounded from a shot to the gut, bleeding out, not in the best emotional state at that moment and wasn't even fully trained in the dark Jedi arts in the first place. It's not like Finn kicked his ass or anything. He very briefly stood up to Kylo and ended up being put in a coma. He was lucky to be alive in the end.

Also keep in mind that Sanitation Department or not the First Order sent him into battle. It's not a stretch to assume he was given some combat training and that likely involved some with weapons similar to the one that Stormtropper he fought used.

I'll address Rey more later when I get a chance, but I do think this whole "Mary Sue" thing is a bit overblown when you take a step back and look at her character as a whole and don't just focus on her ability to use the Force at the end.
[/quote]

The biggest thing a lot of people seem to be missing is:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Kylo was by no means a badass like Vader was. He was still in training. A wanna be who idealizes his grandfather but wasn't yet the man he was. Maybe one day Kylo will get there, but in this film he had a ways to go.

Maybe some of you don't like this portrayal but that's what we got in this film. Personally I think it worked well and enjoyed this unique characterization in the universe [/spolier]
post #1533 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil View Post

How confident would you be against a world class fencer that had been shot in the stomach?

Dude, if he was still standing, and had a magic sword that cuts anything it touches, not very.  

post #1534 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Fok did you see my post in reply to you on Kylo vs Finn:
[/quote]

The biggest thing a lot of people seem to be missing is: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Kylo was by no means a badass like Vader was. He was still in training. A wanna be who idealizes his grandfather but wasn't yet the man he was. Maybe one day Kylo will get there, but in this film he had a ways to go.

Maybe some of you don't like this portrayal but that's what we got in this film. Personally I think it worked well and enjoyed this unique characterization in the universe [/spolier]

Oh, ha.  Just saw it now.  I guess that it can be rationalized, unlike some other things in the movie.  Isn't the ability to use the lightsaber well somehow tied to the force?  In ANH, at least, Obi-wan made a big deal out of that.

post #1535 of 2848
I would like to introduce Rey to my magic sword
post #1536 of 2848
Thread Starter 
Han used Luke's Lightsaber in ESB. wink.gif

Kidding aside this at least proves a non force user can turn one on and use it. No reason Finn couldn't at least swing it like a baton. The Force is just what helps Jedi use these weapons so well.

Thing is:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Finn didn't really use the sword all that well. If anything Kylo was toying with him until Finn got in a lucky strike. After that Kylo took over and the fight was over almost immediately.
post #1537 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Finn vs. Ren.  It would be like me facing a world class fencer.  I have some rudimentary understanding of fencing principles, and I'm reasonably confident that in overall hand-to-hand combat training and practice, I have a lot more years in it then any Olympic fencer, but I mean, c'mon, I'd be skewered nearly immediately.  Physical strength doesn't matter much when it comes to magical laser weapons.  Luke Skywalker, in Empire Strikes back, is only halfway finished his training, and he could kick any stormtroopers ass.  Ren is much more advanced than was Luke, and there is no indication that Finn was a standout in any way. In fact, the expedition to Jakku was his first engagement.

Weapons are designed to change the game. Change who has the advantage. Strength is important, but it only goes so far. If that were the case, all fencers (and all athletes, for that matter), would just be the biggest strongest people possible. Yet somehow the 2012 Olympic gold medalist in Epee was a 5'9" dude in an event where the average height is probably over 6'. (The silver medalist was 6'4". I'm 5'10", and I feel like a shrimp whenever I go to a fencing tournament with my wife.)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Healthy K.Ren, if he were smart, probably would have kicked Rey's ass just because he would have the ability to overpower her and wear her down, even if she were better technically.

Since we're talking about fencing, I just easily found an example of a gender-mixed tournament where a 5'4" 19-year-old woman came in 2nd out of almost 150 mostly male fencers.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
So it's not a huge stretch to think that a woman with street fighting experience with a similar weapon could taken down a seriously injured man with a very rough fighting style. I think the filmmakers made a very deliberate attempt to set this up so it wasn't a huge WTF moment, and they certainly convinced me. So, if you think that this is unrealistic, maybe you're a sexist. Or maybe I'm just a huge feminist and an Uncle Van to my own gender. I don't know.
post #1538 of 2848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I've never before in my life felt the desire to be a gender warrior.  But the stupidity of some of the criticism of the Rey character sorta makes me want to go get a membership card.. 

This is a world in which magic space time is regularly used to further the plot, and where a good number of the main characters have magical powers, ffs.


The original meaning of Mary Sue comes from fanfic when the author would insert an idolized version of themselves in a story as a type of wish fulfillment. No one honestly believes that JJ crafted Rey to be that of himself, but that's part of the problem. The use of the term has expanded so much over the years that it no longer holds any weight or meaning. People just toss it out these days at strong female characters as a way to demean them. It's become a crude and lazy attempt for neck beards to play PC police.
Edited by Jr Mouse - 12/25/15 at 7:51pm
post #1539 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

Weapons are designed to change the game. Change who has the advantage. Strength is important, but it only goes so far. If that were the case, all fencers (and all athletes, for that matter), would just be the biggest strongest people possible. Yet somehow the 2012 Olympic gold medalist in Epee was a 5'9" dude in an event where the average height is probably over 6'. (The silver medalist was 6'4". I'm 5'10", and I feel like a shrimp whenever I go to a fencing tournament with my wife.)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Healthy K.Ren, if he were smart, probably would have kicked Rey's ass just because he would have the ability to overpower her and wear her down, even if she were better technically.

Since we're talking about fencing, I just easily found an example of a gender-mixed tournament where a 5'4" 19-year-old woman came in 2nd out of almost 150 mostly male fencers.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
So it's not a huge stretch to think that a woman with street fighting experience with a similar weapon could taken down a seriously injured man with a very rough fighting style. I think the filmmakers made a very deliberate attempt to set this up so it wasn't a huge WTF moment, and they certainly convinced me. So, if you think that this is unrealistic, maybe you're a sexist. Or maybe I'm just a huge feminist and an Uncle Van to my own gender. I don't know.

But who would win the decathlon? Bruce or Caitlyn?

I would like to introduce Rey to my decathlon..
post #1540 of 2848

Donlt forget Ren was also punching himself in the gut wound for y'know, extra motivation. "C'mon, man, you're better that this! Remember your lessons!"

 

Oy veh.

 

The thing about Mary Sues is that they're better at eveything that everyone else.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
If they had just let Rey have the sword scene as a way to show the force is "strong with this one" then I think people would be loving it. It was her flying the MF out of the gate better than or as good as Solo and then showing him how to tweak it and her escaping the shackles so easily that is pissing people off.

 

lefty

post #1541 of 2848
Thread Starter 
If you really want to get technical about the term Mary Sue, it originates from Star Trek fanfic. It would feature the author inserting an idolized version of themselves into a story. Often as ensign who would team up with or aide the heroes (Kirk and crew) to save the day. Quickly rising the ranks, get the guy/girl, etc, etc. Then leave. The Mary Sue was never a permenant member of the fictional universes they were inserted in. They were not the heroes.

That's why Luke isn't a Mary/Gary Sue. He's the hero of Star Wars.

That's also why Rey isn't a Mary Sue either. She's the hero of TFA and the new trilogy.
post #1542 of 2848
The mouse is a nerd among nerds
post #1543 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
If they had just let Rey have the sword scene as a way to show the force is "strong with this one" then I think people would be loving it. It was her flying the MF out of the gate better than or as good as Solo and then showing him how to tweak it and her escaping the shackles so easily that is pissing people off.

 

lefty

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The flying of the Falcon was stupid.  What I don't get re. the Jedi suggestion trick is that she'd never seen it before. Or it is assumed that these tricks are told in the stories about the old Jedi order?  Or did she see it when she was in Ren Kylo's head?
post #1544 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by grundletaint View Post

But who would win the decathlon? Bruce or Caitlyn?

Definitely Bruce, if only because Caitlyn is, what, thirty years older?

 

There is actually a documented case of a transgendered triathlete, who, after aller all treatments and surgery, competed in essentially the same segment of the women's field as she did in the men's segment when she was physically a man.

post #1545 of 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The flying of the Falcon was stupid.  What I don't get re. the Jedi suggestion trick is that she'd never seen it before. Or it is assumed that these tricks are told in the stories about the old Jedi order?  Or did she see it when she was in Ren Kylo's head?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Had her only Jedi scene been calling the lightsabre past Ren and a passable fight, people would have been all like OMG OMG OMG, instead of WTF.

 

lefty

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