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The Fake Hate Crimes Thread - Page 16

post #226 of 552
Kids should be encouraged to make bombs. If you want to interest them in things like chemistry you've got to make ti cool by blowing shit up. We blew up model rockets once back in the day in some science class or other. One of my favourite classes.
post #227 of 552
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

My complaint there is that people are directing the outrage machine at Islamaphobia instead of zero tolerance. Zero tolerance culture in general is horseshit and there need to be more blowups about it, make schools realize that the consequences of zero tolerance are worse than actually engaging their brains and taking some responsibility for actively making decisions.

I am not a fan of zero tolerance because of stupid outcomes all over the place, but at the same time, is the alternative better? When administrators and teachers are given leeway and latitude on these things, they tend to play favoritism among students and it can lead to certain students getting punished for the same thing that other students get away with.

With that being said, I'm sure in some of these zero tolerance instances, administrators probably cover it up for favorite students anyway.
post #228 of 552
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Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

If it "culminated" in the poptart gun, how bad could it have been? Not that that matters when the sanction is supposed to stand on its own no matter what the prior history. They don't say, well, Billy brought a (poptart) gun to school, but he's been good otherwise, so we'll just paddle him and get on with our lives.
Apparently he had been misbehaving for some sustained period of time that day, was told to stop several times, and the poptart gun thing was the last straw. It's a lot less absurd sounding as "kid behaves badly, gets suspended."
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Perhaps you're not familiar with how bombs are sometimes deployed. See, sometimes the guy who delivers the bomb doesn't care whether he gets blowed up with it or not. Shocking, I know, but it's happened.
It's fairly clear that they never thought it was an actual bomb (perhaps the English teacher was concerned), since the school wasn't evacuated or even locked down. The charge was having a "hoax bomb," which requires some actual attempt to get people to think the device is a bomb. That never happened. When he got in trouble, the thing beeped in his bag and he showed it to the teacher after class to explain and she freaked out. Nothing about that shows any kind of intent for creating a bomb scare.
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Anyway, even if the kid had brought a gun to school and showed it to his teacher, I agree it's not a big deal. But schools are consistently punishing kids who bring weapons or fake weapons to school, regardless of how they're used. It's stupid. I don't dispute that. But they're trying to be even-handed so the president doesn't complain that they're not applying these punishments just certain kids.
A fake gun has a fairly obvious intent of looking like a gun. Electronic parts in a box don't resemble a weapon unless you make the questionably founded jump to "Hollywood bomb."
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"Oh, it was just a clock in a suitcase." How can anyone have a serious conversation about this if you keep up this ridiculous BS.
It wasn't a suitcase, it was a pencil case. Looks pretty much like an small electronics project box, which is almost certainly how he was using it. What else would you put something like that in?
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If you like fake bombs, how do you feel about racist Halloween costumes?
Is there some relationship there?
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Maybe. But by defending the outrage in this case you're contributing to the problem. The reason for "zero tolerance" is that that some people don't seem to trust the schools to administer discipline fairly. The Islamophobia line here, the constant brandishing of statistics accusing schools of being racist for disciplining black kids, etc. The administrators probably thought they were being even-handed in this case.
I called Kai an idiot. I didn't defend the outrage about Islamaphobia.
post #229 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

Kids should be encouraged to make bombs. If you want to interest them in things like chemistry you've got to make ti cool by blowing shit up. We blew up model rockets once back in the day in some science class or other. One of my favourite classes.

I made thermite in high school. Melted through the sidewalk. It was awesome.

Now I'm a chemist.


I'm defending this kid because I could easily see myself having done the same kind of thing. Fucking around with electronics is the kind of thing a modern inquisitive kid would do. Just cutting the wires and piecing it back together isn't ground breaking, but neither is mixing a few chemicals and getting sparks. That's the kind of shit people who are new to science and engineering have to start with. You don't win the Intel Talent Search for it, but fuck punishing kids for naively doing something that caused a tiny bit of disruption or fear in some idiot.
post #230 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

Kids should be encouraged to make bombs. If you want to interest them in things like chemistry you've got to make ti cool by blowing shit up. We blew up model rockets once back in the day in some science class or other. One of my favourite classes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

I made thermite in high school. Melted through the sidewalk. It was awesome.

Now I'm a chemist.


I'm defending this kid because I could easily see myself having done the same kind of thing. Fucking around with electronics is the kind of thing a modern inquisitive kid would do. Just cutting the wires and piecing it back together isn't ground breaking, but neither is mixing a few chemicals and getting sparks. That's the kind of shit people who are new to science and engineering have to start with. You don't win the Intel Talent Search for it, but fuck punishing kids for naively doing something that caused a tiny bit of disruption or fear in some idiot.

Absolutely. Playing around with electronics, soldering, etc was a first step toward engineering school for me.
post #231 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

I am not a fan of zero tolerance because of stupid outcomes all over the place, but at the same time, is the alternative better? When administrators and teachers are given leeway and latitude on these things, they tend to play favoritism among students and it can lead to certain students getting punished for the same thing that other students get away with.

With that being said, I'm sure in some of these zero tolerance instances, administrators probably cover it up for favorite students anyway.

I think dealing with the occasional accusation of bias is better than taking the zero tolerance approach. I understand zero tolerance for certain things (don't bring an actual gun to school, etc), but it's been applied way too broadly.

One person's favoritism is another's discretion. The teachers usually know the kids pretty well, and they are kids afterall. They're going to do dumb shit sometimes, and a good kid who does something dumb doesn't always need to be punished the same way as a routine troublemaker.
post #232 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Apparently he had been misbehaving for some sustained period of time that day, was told to stop several times, and the poptart gun thing was the last straw. It's a lot less absurd sounding as "kid behaves badly, gets suspended."

From what I gather from a'googlin', this seems to have been the case and that the poptart gun story is as loaded with BS as this one. Fair enough.
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It's fairly clear that they never thought it was an actual bomb (perhaps the English teacher was concerned), since the school wasn't evacuated or even locked down. The charge was having a "hoax bomb," which requires some actual attempt to get people to think the device is a bomb. That never happened. When he got in trouble, the thing beeped in his bag and he showed it to the teacher after class to explain and she freaked out. Nothing about that shows any kind of intent for creating a bomb scare.

Intent's not supposed to matter. It's a matter of potential. Billy brought a replica gun like Tamir Rice had, never brings it out. He gets caught with it and he gets suspended because of what he could have done with it, not what he actually did. I actually agree that it's stupid, but it makes sense and it's a consistent application of a widespread rule about weapons.
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A fake gun has a fairly obvious intent of looking like a gun. Electronic parts in a box don't resemble a weapon unless you make the questionably founded jump to "Hollywood bomb."

Like I said before, this line is damned absurd. Any kid smart enough to cut up an alarm clock and put it in a case knows it's going to look like a bomb.

And what's the project supposed to be, anyway?
post #233 of 552
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And what's the project supposed to be, anyway?

He was fucking around for fun. There wasn't a project so far as I know.
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Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


Intent's not supposed to matter. It's a matter of potential. Billy brought a replica gun like Tamir Rice had, never brings it out. He gets caught with it and he gets suspended because of what he could have done with it, not what he actually did. I actually agree that it's stupid, but it makes sense and it's a consistent application of a widespread rule about weapons.
Like I said before, this line is damned absurd. Any kid smart enough to cut up an alarm clock and put it in a case knows it's going to look like a bomb.
But again, it only "looks like a bomb" if "any collection of wires and circuits boards in a case that isn't a commercial product" looks like a bomb. Which is stupid. Take the motherboard out of your computer and put it in a box and it now "looks like a bomb?" Come on.

There's not really an analogy to a replica gun.
post #234 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post


Absolutely. Playing around with electronics, soldering, etc was a first step toward engineering school for me.

Steve Wozniak actually built and planted a fake bomb in high school. Unlike the one here, it was actually fully intended to look like a bomb.

They sent him to juvenile hall for the night, and he spent the time teaching the other inmates how to wire the lights to the cell bars so it would shock the guards.
post #235 of 552
He was fucking around for fun, so he cut up a clock and put it in a metal case. I asked you what it was supposed to be and you can't say, but you -- for no reason I can gather -- insist on denying it that coincidentally fits the popular image of a bomb. It's not that it was electronics in a case, it's that it was a clock. Now whether people actually strapped clocks to explosives to make bombs, I have no idea. But that's beyond the point.
post #236 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

We've never had a Muslim suicide bomber in this country. The only Muslim bombers that I can think of at all are the Tsarnaev brothers. Richard Wright too, but that one didn't work. I don't think it justifies broad suspicion of Muslim teenagers.

I could understand and justify giving the device a second look, but it wouldn't take particularly long to establish that it was just an odd looking electronic device. Certainly the engineering teacher (who would have been reasonably well qualified to judge) saw nothing suspicious, although he predicted the response from his idiot coworkers. There was nothing in there that could possibly have served as the actual explosive part of a bomb. It was just an empty case with wires and a few circuit boards. The arrest and especially the suspension after the fact were totally unnecessary. This sort of culture of fear and zero tolerance is bad.


On the other side of things, it would take a pretty sophisticated terrorist to actually produce a "Hollywood bomb." Actual domestic terrorists are making pipe bombs and pressure cooker bombs.

We're going to end up disagreeing here, I think, in terms of degree rather than concept. For instance I think expecting school officials in BFE Texas to have the level of discernment/knowledge in the bolded is pretty outlandish. I also think that just because we've not had a suicide bomber in the US yet is no reason to think it won't happen. What I'm saying is I don't think the scrutiny or suspicion was misplaced given the state of the world in 2015. What I do think was outright stupid was the response of the adults when it was apparent the kid has just screwed the guts of an alarm clock into a nifty case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Steve Wozniak actually built and planted a fake bomb in high school. Unlike the one here, it was actually fully intended to look like a bomb.

They sent him to juvenile hall for the night, and he spent the time teaching the other inmates how to wire the lights to the cell bars so it would shock the guards.

The world was far different back then and I don't think we can meaningfully compare the two situations. I mean, boys used to grab boobs when I went to school, and we all know how that would end today.
post #237 of 552
The clock in the briefcase was religioracial trolling. And it paid off big time. The parents should be proud.
post #238 of 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

We're going to end up disagreeing here, I think, in terms of degree rather than concept. For instance I think expecting school officials in BFE Texas to have the level of discernment/knowledge in the bolded is pretty outlandish. I also think that just because we've not had a suicide bomber in the US yet is no reason to think it won't happen. What I'm saying is I don't think the scrutiny or suspicion was misplaced given the state of the world in 2015.

It's not the scrutiny or suspicious that's the issue, it's the escalation. The English teacher freaking out is kind of silly, but fine. Bringing the cops in isn't absurd either. But arresting him, charging him with a "bomb hoax", and then the school proceeding with the suspension after the fact is what takes it off the rails.
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The world was far different back then and I don't think we can meaningfully compare the two situations. I mean, boys used to grab boobs when I went to school, and we all know how that would end today.
It's an interesting parallel. You'd never, ever get away with that today and shouldn't. But many people are tossing around this whole "why would anyone ever build a clock hurrr" line, and you get a technical genius like Woz who deliberately built a fake bomb for laughs.

On the Ahmed bit, calling it a bomb hoax might even have made sense if he'd have done something to present it as a bomb like Woz did. But just leaving it in his backpack? The jump to "oh he could have been a suicide bomber, so it could have been a hoax" is just a bridge too far.

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What I do think was outright stupid was the response of the adults when it was apparent the kid has just screwed the guts of an alarm clock into a nifty case.
The interesting thing there is that the only picture that's getting passed around doesn't even show the screen. It's clearly being presented as "electronics = bomb."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

He was fucking around for fun, so he cut up a clock and put it in a metal case. I asked you what it was supposed to be and you can't say, but you -- for no reason I can gather -- insist on denying it that coincidentally fits the popular image of a bomb. It's not that it was electronics in a case, it's that it was a clock. Now whether people actually strapped clocks to explosives to make bombs, I have no idea. But that's beyond the point.

Piob's response got me to realize that we're talking past each other. As I said to him, I can understand the initial reaction from the English teacher of being concerned at seeing a timer screen on a homemade case. It's stupid, but abundance of caution and all that. The problematic part is the police and then the school spinning it into a "bomb hoax," arresting and then suspending him.

In the age of Raspberry Pi's, Arduinos, etc, a screen in a box shouldn't even be particularly suspicious, much less a deliberate attempt at making a hoax bomb. This stuff is routine now, and a lot of little nerds are going to be fucking around with them. They should be encouraged, not forced to keep it at home because some idiot might claim they were trying to fake having a bomb.
post #239 of 552
Boston still refers to the Great Mooninite Attack of 2007 as a "bomb hoax." The phrase is dogshit.
post #240 of 552
Talking past each other, no doubt. There are a lot of separate but related issues at play here:

1) Whether the "clock" really looked like a bomb;

2) Whether the "clock" could be reasonably taken as a bomb by people who didn't know better;

3) Whether the kid knew or should have known it would be mistaken for a bomb;

4) Whether it had any other reason to be there;

5) Whether the school should punish kids for possessing things that look like weapons but turn out not to be;

6) Whether doing so is consistent with other zero-tolerance cases;

Etc.
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