selvage question - Page 2

SELVAGE DENIM is woven on ANTIQUE SHUTTLE LOOMS....most bought from USA in the 80's by the JAPANESE ( smart )....duh....US denim mills decided to sell off all the old looms..except for a handful which Cone Mills still weaves out of their White Oak palnt. Real Selvage never has " frayed edge " and the width of the fabric is about 28-29 inches wide from selvage edge to selvage edge. That is why selvage jeans cost so much....they are all cut along the selvage edge ( the outseam ) and one jean consumes over 3 1/2 yards of denim for one pair of jeans. 5EP denim is woven on antique shuttle looms by one of the oldest textile mills in JAPAN ( est 113 years ago ). We use a very special dye color using pure indigo mix and our selvage is our own design. RAW DENIM is not washed and had a " hard " starch hand feel. For example 5EP denim is SANFORIZED ( pre shrunk ) and PRE SKEWED ( doesn't twist in the leg ). Due to this processing we can accurately know how much our jeans will shrink after home laundering.

this was an incredibly enlightening thread, thank you for all the info. My question though is, why is this so desirable? Is it for the sake of rarity? Is quality dramatically improved?

^^^ right, now you're getting to the interesting part...

Just for truth's sake. THis is almost totally wrong. The Japanese have one of the most advanced loom industries in the world. Toyoda, later Toyota, invented some of the most innovative looms frm the 20s onwards – they were exported widely and also made under licence. There were therefore thousands of selvage looms in service in Japan, and no need to import any old, heavy and difficult to maintain looms from the US. There are only a few known US looms in Japan, none of which anyone has proven to be used in denim manufacture. All the classic 80s Japanese makers, notably Evis, used fabric from Kurabo, Kaihara, Nisshinbo and Mempo, all of whom use Toyoda looms. I know people who've visited every one of those four mills, none of whom have seen one American loom installed. There is no evidence whatsoever of US looms being used in Japan. I have exchanged correspondence with Yamane on exactly this issue - he initally claims to be using "old Levi's looms", then when interrogated denied he'd made such a claim, and acknoweldged that his early fabric came from Kurabo - who use Toyoda looms for most, if not all, of their denim production The above has become pretty common knowledge over the last five years, and I am starting to feel very suspicious of any manufacturer who claims to use "antique US looms" on their Japanese selvage, because that claim has, in the past, so often been revealed as BS. THe part about all selvage looms being 28inches wide is also incorrect. There are many wide selvage looms around, notably the Draper X3, which is adjustable; from the 50s, in the US, huge amounts of selvage was produced in 42inch width, or more. This is possibly one reason why Lee switched to a single selvage in the 50s, and why visible selvage started to become less common.

Another question: What does selvage add?

Answer: Nothing.

Nice one nastyandy! My avatar I think might help too ;-)

Functionally? Nothing. Aesthetically? Quite a bit if that's important to you. I happen to like it. It's not the most important thing in my jeans, but if you give me the choice between two otherwise identical jeans, one selvedge, one not, at the same pricepoint, I'll take the selvedge, please.

Oh oh, denim stocks dropped sharply after Paul T's informative post

Sure, if you roll up your cuffs. But I think too many people here think it implies some kind of quality, when in fact it plays no structural or functional role whatsoever in the jeans.

So if one likes it for how it looks, why bother distinguishing real selvage from from fake?

because the real looks better...

also this thread is from 2007...

Excellent explanation Nastyandy. You even covered the questionable examples. Also, thanks for using the macro on your camera. It bug the hell out of me when people post blurry pictures.

this post should defs be in the faq

FWIW, disregard NA's first picture (from the 3rd post), that's a serge on the left and a taped seam on the right, not selvedge