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Is a natural shoulder on a business suit inappropriate? - Page 4

post #46 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff13007 View Post

Wrong. There are unpadded shoulders with roping.
http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?49543-Neapolitan-Shoulder-Explained
One of the few good posts on that site. Most others are mehh though.

That pic is taken from that site. Both are unpadded one has roping the other doesn't

Unless you can dig Mr. Giona Granata for some further explanation, There is no way that a man's shoulder can be so prefect, not even a small nip pick on his shoulder line. If you can show me a better example, ideally not crop from non first hand website. There must be a very thin pad to hide those imperfection on the shoulder line.

There are better people in this thread to evaluate, however don't forget different tailors learn different things. One might say yes and the other say no
post #47 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post

Also, "business suit"? Redundant, no?

Tweed suit
Something-you-see-at-Pitti suit
Cream linen suit
MaoMao suit
Luca Rubinacci suit (different from the usual Pitti suit, IMO)
Corduroy suit
Law suit
Foo's overly collaborative 80s homage DB suit
Foo's mind blowingly awesome uncollaborative DB suit

It not all biz-naz...
post #48 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by add911_11 View Post

Unless you can dig Mr. Giona Granata for some further explanation, There is no way that a man's shoulder can be so prefect, not even a small nip pick on his shoulder line. If you can show me a better example, ideally not crop from non first hand website. There must be a very thin pad to hide those imperfection on the shoulder line.
There are better people in this thread to evaluate, however don't forget different tailors learn different things. One might say yes and the other say no

So you are saying there are no such thing as unpadded shoulders? Because that would be news to me, besides we are discussing the rolled shoulders at the end of the shoulder line or "con rolino (sp?)" not the actual shoulder line itself. Fine ill give it to you, they do use a thin wadding which is what NSM, Steed and other "unpadded" makers do but that is more akin to canvassing than a shoulder pad. One of the main appeals of Neopolitan tailoring is that they are able to make a suit look good without "padding" and yes some do have rolled shoulders. In the end its up to you weather you want to believe it or not and I really don't feel like browsing around listing links to forums posts/articles that have proven this as FACT.

P.S: I know Im sounding like an ass right now and I'm really not trying to force my views on you but these are things that have been long established over here. No offense meant on my part, and if it turns out that i was wrong then my apologizes in advance.
post #49 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff13007 View Post

...they do use a thin wadding which is what NSM, Steed and other "unpadded" makers do but that is more akin to canvassing than a shoulder pad...

I don't know what you guys are arguing about - as in I haven't actually read the past posts, not that I don't see the disagreement.

But the quoted bit is wrong. Wadding is nothing like canvas at all. Canvas is like canvas and wadding is some soft cotton that vaguely resembles the preformed shoulder pads that many tailors use.
post #50 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

I don't know what you guys are arguing about - as in I haven't actually read the past posts, not that I don't see the disagreement.
But the quoted bit is wrong. Wadding is nothing like canvas at all. Canvas is like canvas and wadding is some soft cotton that vaguely resembles the preformed shoulder pads that many tailors use.

Yes you are right it is a soft cotton but I said "more akin to canvas as opposed to shoulder padding". I didn't say they stick canvas in there, my point was the wadding will break down over your shoulder over time so it molds just like how canvas does (arguably good shoulder padding will as well). My bad though i said that in a wrong way thank you for the correction, i was just trying to make a strict differentiation between wadding in the shoulder and actual padding. We are arguing about the existence of non padded suit jackets with rolled shoulder sleeves, which according to him does not exist.
post #51 of 68
I think we might be mistaken about the nature of shoulder padding, sponge and wadding are types of pad options, hence all tailored coats should be padded to some extend.
Non padded roped shoulder doesn't mean there is no padding inside, mere it may only have a couple of weddings.

It is your idea that wedding = non padded needs to be adjust.
post #52 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by add911_11 View Post

I think we might be mistaken about the nature of shoulder padding, sponge and wadding are types of pad options, hence all tailored coats should be padded to some extend.
Non padded roped shoulder doesn't mean there is no padding inside, mere it may only have a couple of weddings.
It is your idea that wedding = non padded needs to be adjust.

Yes you are absolutely right and i agree with everything that you just said. But going by what you just said even "unpadded" jackets have some form of "padding" in the form of the cotton wadding, but yet they can still have the rolled shoulder. Like i said in my last post i really don't mean to come off as degrading but even "unpadded jackets" can have rolled shoulders. I have a feeling this is just purely miscommunication but i felt that your Rolled vs padded statement was wrong and i tried to correct it as best i could, as you can have an "unpadded (cotton wadding)" shoulder with a rolled end. My point was that they were not mutually exclusive. The main idea of a suit jacket or any tailored clothing for that matter is to hide the defects that are found in an average human, without something there to help hide it ( the wadding/padding) i don't know how exactly they would. Again i apologize to you as i feel i may have been a bit harsh but i just didn't want people to think that padded shoulder and rolled shoulders were mutually exclusive and you couldn't have one without the other which i still hold too that you can.

PS: i stil dont count the cotton wadding as "padding" as most makers that claim to be unpadded still use a form of wadding in there. I have yet to see a completely unpadded ( nothing there) suit jacket. Even makers such as NSM who use "no shoulder padding" still have a cotton wad in there and yes i know this first hand as i have a suit commissioned from them. And yes the shoulders are rolled, i would post a pic for you as you requested first hand sources but I'm in the middle of shipping back all my stuff to Singapore from NYC so its in transit right now along with most my stuff
post #53 of 68

Let's put it this way, natural shoulders or with a little padding is more appropriate than looking like a football quarterback. Plus you have to make sure you're measured by your tailor precisely to achieve that.

post #54 of 68
Whatever.
post #55 of 68
Thread Starter 
Didn't mean to cause such conflict - but it's been interesting! I do like the soft natural shoulder. I don't think they're all equal though, either. I used to work for Southwick back when they were Grieco Brothers, and they had/have what they called a natural shoulder but, but certainly nothing like the photos I included in this thread... Southwick was the classic sack suit (a terrible name, but somewhat accurately described). Low armholes, shapeless, etc. I do like the look of the natural shoulder suits - yes less forgiving than suits with a bit more padding, but this has all been good food for thought... and I appreciate all the responses.
post #56 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff13007 View Post

You both realize that you can have roped or non roped shoulders on both padded and unpadded shoulders right?

Yes, correct. So to rephrase, my preference is for unpadded roped shoulders. It takes a good tailor to do it...
post #57 of 68
JefferyD's "Shoulder Expression" thread will clear up some of the confusion above. The 'bald' shoulder on the far right below is inappropriate for businesswear in my opinion. Even worse is if you make the shoulders narrow, at which point you're basically just wearing a worsted wool sweater with lapels, and it will appear as such to even the most lay observer. Moreover, in my experience, it will look as if you have weak or narrow shoulders if everyone around you is wearing conventional roped, extended shoulders.

5760245018_ef73f39789_b.jpg
post #58 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfluous View Post

I think all jackets should have strong roped shoulders, otherwise they're just cardigans tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfluous View Post

the natural shoulder with an unroped shoulder will look more weenie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenn View Post

The 'bald' shoulder on the far right below is inappropriate for businesswear in my opinion. Even worse is if you make the shoulders narrow, at which point you're basically just wearing a worsted wool sweater with lapels.

Here's the weenie worsted wool cardigan with lapels that I wore for court today:

r48NU.jpgMw5Yf.jpg
9ZhQx.jpg3O1Qi.jpg
post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenn View Post

JefferyD's "Shoulder Expression" thread will clear up some of the confusion above. The 'bald' shoulder on the far right below is inappropriate for businesswear in my opinion. Even worse is if you make the shoulders narrow, at which point you're basically just wearing a worsted wool sweater with lapels, and it will appear as such to even the most lay observer. Moreover, in my experience, it will look as if you have weak or narrow shoulders if everyone around you is wearing conventional roped, extended shoulders.
5760245018_ef73f39789_b.jpg

Mmmmmm worsted wool sweater with lapels
post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldog/oldtrix View Post

Here's the weenie worsted wool cardigan with lapels that I wore for court today:

That is neither narrow-shouldered nor bald-shouldered as I stated, therefore of course it looks legitimate. There's still a signifcant amount of canvassing going into your shoulder which extends well beyond the natural end of your deltoid, forming a subtle ridge. A true 'sweater jacket' would have just one layer of sleeve cloth running up to the acromion process, which will indeed look nothing but a cardigan. If I have the time I may post one I had my tailor make up.
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