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Antonio Meccariello Shoes - Page 140

post #2086 of 2288
This is an interesting page on Meccariello's website...

Antonio details a machine method for achieving much the same connection / result as handwelted work. A stripped doown insole looks a lot like some variation of a HW insole / shoe with an inside channel and a feather. As a whole, I thought it was very interesting although there are some limitation to such machine work that also limit what can be done in the end. For instance, a fixed stroke length makes narrow toes near impossible without terminally damaging the holdfast. And of course the thread and esp. the wax will differ significantly fro what is used in HW work...and not for the better or even as a near substitute.

But having said that, it is certainly a large, long step beyond GY and even BR.

Antonio says he is calling it "Classic Goodyear or Machine Welted" and while the first is simply false, the second is a bit misleading even if true. I was asked, by a person who represents him, what I would call it...I would call it "Argentum Construction"--it distinguishes it from GY, if nothing else and certainly the naming should go to the person who develops the technique.

Of course, the "proof is in the pudding" as who should say but at first blush, Antonio may...just may...have achieved some sort of "milestone" in developing a process that embodies a measure of both authentic quality and mass manufacturing economy of production.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 7/27/16 at 4:23pm
post #2087 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

This is an interesting page on Meccariello's website...

Antonio details a machine method for achieving much the same connection / result as handwelted work. A stripped doown insole looks a lot like some variation of a HW insole / shoe with an inside channel and a feather. As a whole, I thought it was very interesting although there are some limitation to such machine work that also limit what can be done in the end. For instance, a fixed stroke length makes narrow toes near impossible without terminally damaging the holdfast. And of course the thread and esp. the wax will differ significantly fro what is used in HW work...and not for the better or even as a near substitute.

But having said that, it is certainly a large, long step beyond GY and even BR.

Antonio says he is calling it "Classic Goodyear or Machine Welted" and while the first is simply, false the second is a bit mislead even if true. I was asked, by a person who represents him, what I would call it...I would call it "Argentum Construction"--it distinguishes it from GY, if nothing else and certainly the naming should go to the person who develops the technique.

Of course, the "proof is in the pudding" as who should say but at first blush, Antonio may...just may...have achieved some sort of "milestone" in developing a process that embodies a measure of both authentic quality and mass manufacturing economy of production.

Very insightful, thank you. Always great to hear your comments on construction.

 

My guess would be Goodyear has the name recognition, hence it is what Antonio labeled it. Those who don't know are happy. Those who do will read that page (or your comment) and know they are getting something better.

post #2088 of 2288

Great to know your inputs, DW.  Why do you say is not Classic or Original GYW (ex: a la Weston)?. Is it because involves another process carving an outside feather by machine ?.

 

 

 

 

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 82

post #2089 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

This is an interesting page on Meccariello's website...

Antonio details a machine method for achieving much the same connection / result as handwelted work. A stripped doown insole looks a lot like some variation of a HW insole / shoe with an inside channel and a feather. As a whole, I thought it was very interesting although there are some limitation to such machine work that also limit what can be done in the end. For instance, a fixed stroke length makes narrow toes near impossible without terminally damaging the holdfast. And of course the thread and esp. the wax will differ significantly fro what is used in HW work...and not for the better or even as a near substitute.

But having said that, it is certainly a large, long step beyond GY and even BR.

Antonio says he is calling it "Classic Goodyear or Machine Welted" and while the first is simply, false the second is a bit mislead even if true. I was asked, by a person who represents him, what I would call it...I would call it "Argentum Construction"--it distinguishes it from GY, if nothing else and certainly the naming should go to the person who develops the technique.

Of course, the "proof is in the pudding" as who should say but at first blush, Antonio may...just may...have achieved some sort of "milestone" in developing a process that embodies a measure of both authentic quality and mass manufacturing economy of production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

Great to know your inputs, DW.  Why do you say is not Classic or Original GYW (ex: a la Weston)?. Is it because involves another process carving an outside feather by machine ?.





CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 82

Also curious what's the difference between the old method which I think is called cut-and-turn if I remember correctly and this that Antonio is doing? I just thought this was a version of that. Looks kind of like a mix between two of JM Weston's insoles (second and forth on the pic) who also don't use gemming on some shoes still:

18.jpg

Either way, it seems like a really good solution. Of course more costly insole material, but since he cut the holdfast by machine it must still be relatively fast (ergo economic) to able to keep a good price on the shoes (which these sure has).
Edited by j ingevaldsson - 7/27/16 at 11:51am
post #2090 of 2288
The Classic Goodyear turns the flaps of leather created by the channels upright...contrary to, and against, the natural lie of the fiber mat. That's what made it weak and prone to breaking through.

And additionally, in order to turn those flaps upright they had to be cut quite close to one another...so the holdfast created wasn't all that thick.

And that's why manufactures went to reinforcing the upright flaps of leather with canvas...which eventually devolved into eliminating the leather channels altogether and just relying on the canvas...and cement.

But bottom line, Goodyear is Goodyear because it was invented / popularized by a man named Charles Goodyear....as an expedient machine substitute for all the work and expense and skill required to do HW.

The Argentum method isn't perfect but, at least the way the webpage describes it, the holdfast should be significantly thicker and the stitches aligned with the fibers. And none of that deep forepart cavity that needs to be filled with cork or foam rubber. And it relies on stitching and not on cement to hold it together. Of course, the stitch itself will always be a machine lock-stitch (unless it's a chain stitch) and can never be as tight or reliable as a shoemaker's stitch. The wax would almost certainly be paraffin based rather than rosin based and the thread surely a synthetic--which in the absence of a good handwax will tend to stretch and slip.

But again, I've seen similar work done by machine...not often. I suspect it takes a certain amount of dexterity and a certain widespread acceptance to be economically feasible. Maybe this will catch on and supplant GY which, as everyone knows, is a Rube Goldberg solution if there ever was one.

To call this process Goodyear, however, only serves to confuse things further and so muddy the waters that whatever advantage there is to using it becomes lost in all the hype and misunderstanding--no distinction, no reason to prefer it.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 7/27/16 at 4:26pm
post #2091 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The Classic Goodyear turns the flaps of leather created by the channels upright...contrary to, and against, the natural lie of the fiber mat. That's what made it weak and prone to breaking through.

And additionally, in order to turn those flaps upright they had to be cut quite close to one another...so the holdfast created wasn't all that thick.

And that's why manufactures went to reinforcing the upright flaps of leather with canvas...which eventually devolved into eliminating the leather channels altogether and just relying on the canvas...and cement.

But bottom line, Goodyear is Goodyear because it was invented / popularized by a man named Charles Goodyear....as an expedient machine substitute for all the work and expense and skill required to do HW.

The Argentum method isn't perfect but, at least the way the webpage describes it, the holdfast should be significantly thicker and the stitches aligned with the fibers. And none of that deep forepart cavity that needs to be filled with cork or foam rubber. And it relies on stitching and not on cement to hold it together. Of course, the stitch itself will always be a machine lock-stitch (unless it's a chain stitch) and can never be as tight or reliable as a shoemaker's stitch. The wax would almost certainly be paraffin based rather than rosin based and the thread surely a synthetic--which in the absence of a good handwax will tend to stretch and slip.

But again, I've seen similar work done by machine...not often. I suspect it takes a certain amount of dexterity and a certain widespread acceptance to be economically feasible. Maybe this will catch on and supplant GY which, as everyone knows, is a Rube Goldberg solution if there ever was one.

To call this process Goodyear only serves to confuse things further and so muddy the waters that whatever advantage there is to using it becomes lost in all the hype and misunderstanding--no distinction, no reason to prefer it.

Okay thanks for explaining, now I understand the difference between the different ways to make the holdfast in the leather. Seems like Antonio is onto something really good here then.

Regarding the use of Goodyear, I know this has been discussed before, don't remember how it is exactly but hand welted in Italy is called something like "Goodyear Fatte a mano", so that's why they often call hand welted for Handmade Goodyear or something like that when writing in English. Maybe that's what's chiming in here as well.

It's a bit weird with Italians and shoe constructions names, I know a lot say Black/Rapid for Blake/Rapid, which don't really makes sense at all, and since they are the one who favour the construction the most they should know the name.
post #2092 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

Regarding the use of Goodyear, I know this has been discussed before, don't remember how it is exactly but hand welted in Italy is called something like "Goodyear Fatte a mano", so that's why they often call hand welted for Handmade Goodyear or something like that when writing in English. Maybe that's what's chiming in here as well.

It's a bit weird with Italians and shoe constructions names, I know a lot say Black/Rapid for Blake/Rapid, which don't really makes sense at all, and since they are the one who favour the construction the most they should know the name.

People are lazy. When anything is so hyped...rightly or wrongly...that it becomes almost synonymous in the public's mind with an item, esp. a commonplace item such as shoes, it's often easier to allow a misconception or misinformation to exist than to try to explain the difference.

It's expediency, pure and simple...which is fitting if only because expediency is the raison d'etre of GY itself.

But words have meanings and help us to communicate what we mean. I chuckle a bit (sotto voce) because...as mentioned above...Antonio faces a dilemma--if he persists in calling this method "Goodyear" (or any flavour of GY) he strengthens in the consumer's mind that association with an expedient and inferior method of construction. Not a very good way to distinguish (or sell) your product. Or extol an innovation.

His webpage (the link I provided) clearly shows he understands the mechanics and the deficiencies of GY...and would rather offer his customer's something different, something better.

Now he just has to communicate that succinctly and without confusion. "Goodyear" doesn't do it, anymore than "Goodyear Fatte a Mano" makes for clarity in the wider world of shoemaking.

fing02[1].gif
post #2093 of 2288

To be clear, instead of using a strip of canvas or linen or whatever, he's carved a flap of leather from the insole which he then uses a machine to stitch to the welt. Correct? Basically GYW without the glue or canvas? 

post #2094 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post

To be clear, instead of using a strip of canvas or linen or whatever, he's carved a flap of leather from the insole which he then uses a machine to stitch to the welt. Correct? Basically GYW without the glue or canvas? 

Again, I don't think so.

Here's a quick drawing that may clarify things a bit:




Top is the original GY. Insole @ 5-6mm.

Middle is contemporary GY (with the caveat that the insole is usually half as thick as illustrated--3mm?) and th holdfast is canvas cemented to the flesh side of the insole if...if it has a flesh side, if it is even leather.

Bottom is handwelted...insole is usually approximately 5-6 mm and sometimes a bit more

The Argentum technique looks remarkably like the HW technique both visually and mechanically. And Antonio is saying the insole will be the same thickness as in HW.

--
Edited by DWFII - 7/28/16 at 5:53am
post #2095 of 2288

So he cuts a flap of leather, then uses a machine to stitch the welt to the insole flap? Correct?

post #2096 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

This is an interesting page on Meccariello's website...

Antonio details a machine method for achieving much the same connection / result as handwelted work. A stripped doown insole looks a lot like some variation of a HW insole / shoe with an inside channel and a feather. As a whole, I thought it was very interesting although there are some limitation to such machine work that also limit what can be done in the end. For instance, a fixed stroke length makes narrow toes near impossible without terminally damaging the holdfast. And of course the thread and esp. the wax will differ significantly fro what is used in HW work...and not for the better or even as a near substitute.

But having said that, it is certainly a large, long step beyond GY and even BR.

Antonio says he is calling it "Classic Goodyear or Machine Welted" and while the first is simply false, the second is a bit misleading even if true. I was asked, by a person who represents him, what I would call it...I would call it "Argentum Construction"--it distinguishes it from GY, if nothing else and certainly the naming should go to the person who develops the technique.

Of course, the "proof is in the pudding" as who should say but at first blush, Antonio may...just may...have achieved some sort of "milestone" in developing a process that embodies a measure of both authentic quality and mass manufacturing economy of production.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

I saw them post the pics on Instagram yesterday and was about to post a question about it on the shoe construction thread until I saw it had been discussed here.

 

They have now updated the page with the name Argentum Construction and credited you for the name.

 

Goosebumps! I feel like I just witnessed an historical event.

post #2097 of 2288
This is great, I've felt that calling this method anything with Goodyear in the term would not have done it any justice at all.
post #2098 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post

So he cuts a flap of leather, then uses a machine to stitch the welt to the insole flap? Correct?

No.

On a handwelted shoe, a channel is cut to about half the depth of the insole--simply to afford access to the center of the insole substance. And then a "feather" (a notch) is cut along the edge of the insole. All by hand. The inseam (stitching ) runs between the deepest end of the channel, through the leather between...which is called the "holdfast"...and the edge of the insole. You can see this clearly in the illustrations above. The flap is incidental. It may or may not exist. Sometimes a simple groove (still called a "channel") is cut and there is no flap.

The Argentum method uses a machine to cut a channel to about half the depth of the insole-- theoretically, and simply, to afford access to the center of the insole substance. Also a "feather" (a notch) is cut (again, by machine) along the edge of the insole. The inseam (stitching ) runs between the deepest end of the channel, through the leather between...which is called the "holdfast"...and the edge of the insole. The flap is incidental. It plays no part in securing the inseam.

In either method...HW or AC...the welt is sewn to the holdfast which is fundamentally untouched insole.

In the original GY, the flap was indeed essential. It was the holdfast.

In contemporary GY the insole, itself, is almost incidental. The holdfast is the canvas gemming.

--
Edited by DWFII - 7/28/16 at 5:54am
post #2099 of 2288
Nice NSTs. I think my first 'proper' shoes were Dovers.
post #2100 of 2288
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

No.

On a handwelted shoe, a channel is cut to about half the depth of the insole. And then a "feather" (a notch) is cut along the edge of the insole. All by hand. The inseam (stitching ) runs between the interior end of the channel, through the leather between, which is called the "holdfast", and out the edge of the insole. The flap may or may not exist. Sometimes a simple groove (still called a channel) is cut and there is no flap.

The Argentum method uses a machine to cut a channel to about half the depth of the insole. And also cut a "feather" (a notch) along the edge of the insole. The inseam (stitching ) runs between the interior end of the channel, through the leather between, which is called the "holdfast", and out the edge of the insole. The flap is incidental. It plays no part in securing the inseam.


In either method...HW or AC...the welt is sewn to the holdfast which is fundamentally untouched insole.

In the original GY the flap was indeed essential. It was the holdfast.

In contemporary GY the insole is almost incidental. The holdfast is the canvas gemming.

DW, do you think that the machinery needed for this specific welting process has to be distinctly different from a GYW machine to be able to execute the stitching "underneath" the incidental flap and then out the edge of the insole?
Also, do you think that by having an incidental flap from the cutting of the inside channel, gives it some advantage by protecting / covering part of the inseaming thread? It reminds me somewhat of how outsole stitching can be protected by cutting a similar kind of channel in the bottom of the outsole.
Once again, thanks in advance for your time and efforts.
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