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Buying shoes for your arch size? - Page 4

post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


FWIW...one of the makers who had an particularly large influence on me esp. in my early years was Sam Luchesse--a third generation boot and shoemaker from a family of Italian shoemakers.

He once famously said "If you're going to fit them wrong, fit them long."

Fitting according to the stick length, when the heel to ball suggests a longer size would be more appropriate, will do more harm to the foot than vice versa, IOW.

 

In other words, he agrees with me. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Lesson learned? I would rather have arch length not exactly aligned than having toe box too short killing my toes.

 

But meh, you still probably won't agree with me despite of what S.Luchesse said, only because of your philosophical stance on the perfect fit.  RTW fit is a compromise.

post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

In other words, he agrees with me. 


But meh, you still probably won't agree with me despite of what S.Luchesse said, only because of your philosophical stance on the perfect fit.  RTW fit is a compromise.

Actually I think that's not the case. It's a bit hard to read but if you take out the sentence in the middle I think it becomes more clear:

Fitting according to the stick length will do more harm to the foot than vice versa.

I.e. if my stick length is 8 but ball to heel is 9, I should rather take the long fit of 9 than the 8.

There is no way I can have a cramped toebox in a 9 when my stick length is 8. There's going to be plenty of empty space for the toes.
post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post


Actually I think that's not the case. It's a bit hard to read but if you take out the sentence in the middle I think it becomes more clear:

Fitting according to the stick length will do more harm to the foot than vice versa.

I.e. if my stick length is 8 but ball to heel is 9, I should rather take the long fit of 9 than the 8.

There is no way I can have a cramped toebox in a 9 when my stick length is 8. There's going to be plenty of empty space for the toes.

 

Sure, what about the cases that the condition is reversed?  Or what about the cases where the toe box design is short or narrow?

 

Fitting is multifaceted.  H-B is no doubt very important part of the fit and might/will cause long term damage if not properly fitted.  But any mis-fit in the toe box area will bring immediate pain and make the shoes unwearable.  Compromise, nothing is absolute.

 

p.s., not having toe box too short/narrow, implicitly, is fitting the shoes long...

post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

In other words, he agrees with me. 

He doesn't agree with you...he made that statement years and years ago to referring to retail sales clerks...you just agree with him. And the real reason you agree with him is that it lets you justify being "wrong."
Quote:
But meh, you still probably won't agree with me despite of what S.Luchesse said, only because of your philosophical stance on the perfect fit.  RTW fit is a compromise.

"The perfect fit" ...you invented that phrase. No shoemaker would use it or claim it. A good fit...a healthy fit, is an entirely different thing. Fitting in disregard of the heel to ball is never a good or a healthy fit. Period.

Nearly everything you have said on this issue illustrates your lack of comprehension. and much of it devolves into gibberish.

--
post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Actually I think that's not the case. It's a bit hard to read but if you take out the sentence in the middle I think it becomes more clear:

Fitting according to the stick length will do more harm to the foot than vice versa.

I.e. if my stick length is 8 but ball to heel is 9, I should rather take the long fit of 9 than the 8.

There is no way I can have a cramped toebox in a 9 when my stick length is 8. There's going to be plenty of empty space for the toes.

Exactly right. And I said exactly the same thing. Explicitly...that cramped toes are not a good fit, not acceptable. But the thing is that if you respect heel to ball, a cramped toe is near onto impossible. Or as a result of factors not related to length or heel to ball. Simply because to get cramped toes you have to disregard HB and fit entirely according to stick.

--
Edited by DWFII - 11/11/15 at 5:01pm
post #51 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Sure, what about the cases that the condition is reversed?  Or what about the cases where the toe box design is short or narrow?

Fitting is multifaceted.  H-B is no doubt very important part of the fit and might/will cause long term damage if not properly fitted.  But any mis-fit in the toe box area will bring immediate pain and make the shoes unwearable.  Compromise, nothing is absolute.

p.s., not having toe box too short/narrow, implicitly, is fitting the shoes long...

Well we were talking about my case specifically here... wink.gif

Fitting the toe box correctly is not fitting it long. Fitting it long means you're ignoring length (in one direction only, I.e. not fitting them too short just to make something else fit) because you're making sure other things fit right. I can have my toe box fitting right just by going up in width and staying with the same length, so no, nothing implicit there. Maybe implicit if you artificially limit your choices to shoes that are only available in one width, but why would I bother buying from such a company?
post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

p.s., not having toe box too short/narrow, implicitly, is fitting the shoes long...

Narrow has nothing to do with it.
post #53 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


He doesn't agree with you...he made that statement years and years ago to referring to retail sales clerks...you just agree with him. And the real reason you agree with him is that it lets you justify being "wrong."


[/quote]But meh, you still probably won't agree with me despite of what S.Luchesse said, only because of your philosophical stance on the perfect fit.  RTW fit is a compromise.
[/quote]

"The perfect fit" ...you invented that phrase. No shoemaker would use it or claim it. A good fit...a healthy fit, is an entirely different thing. Fitting in disregard of the heel to ball is never a good or a healthy fit. Period.

 

I don't disagree, but sometimes something's gotta give in RTW.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Exactly right. And I said exactly the same thing. Explicitly...that cramped toes are not a good fit, not acceptable. But the thing is that if you respect heel to ball, a cramped toe is near onto impossible. Or as a result factors not related to length or heel to ball. Simply because to get cramped toes you have to disregard HB and fit entirely according to stick.

 

That's not true, not at least from my experience of buying RTW/MTO shoes.

post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post


Well we were talking about my case specifically here... wink.gif

Fitting the toe box correctly is not fitting it long. Fitting it long means you're ignoring length (in one direction only, I.e. not fitting them too short just to make something else fit) because you're making sure other things fit right. I can have my toe box fitting right just by going up in width and staying with the same length, so no, nothing implicit there. Maybe implicit if you artificially limit your choices to shoes that are only available in one width, but why would I bother buying from such a company?

 

That is oftentimes the conundrum; not all brands follow brannock device measurements or offer multiple width options.  And if we are talking in H-B or brannock, its RTW by default.

 

If you follow some brand threads, you oftentimes see people recommending going up in size to compensate for a narrower last, or vice versa for a wider last.  Or to size down for lasts designed with thick socks, etc.

 

Worse case, as I have experienced, is getting shoes thats poor fit (short toe box) despite being fitted and last adjusted...

 

p.s., H-B isn't usually measured when ordering bespoke shoes though they always take foot prints, sometimes in multiple ways.

post #55 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

That is oftentimes the conundrum; not all brands follow brannock device measurements or offer multiple width options.  And if we are talking in H-B or brannock, its RTW by default.

If you follow some brand threads, you oftentimes see people recommending going up in size to compensate for a narrower last, or vice versa for a wider last.  Or to size down for lasts designed with thick socks, etc.

Worse case, as I have experienced, is getting shoes thats poor fit (short toe box) despite being fitted and last adjusted...

p.s., H-B isn't usually measured when ordering bespoke shoes though they always take foot prints, sometimes in multiple ways.

Says the pretend bespoke maker. Says the guy who damns rationality and objectivity. Says the one who gets all his information from visiting shoe factories or parroting other people on the Internet.

You're a regular fountain of darkness in a world of light.
post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Says the pretend bespoke maker. Says the guy who damns rationality and objectivity. Says the one who gets all his information from visiting shoe factories or parroting other people on the Internet.

You're a regular fountain of darkness in a world of light.

 

Why don't you just ignore him because you're acting like a child.

post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post
 

 

Why don't you just ignore him because you're acting like a child.

:facepalm:

post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post

Why don't you just ignore him because you're acting like a child.

Why? Because I take responsibility for what I say. Because people come here seeking information and knowledge...and help. And I try to give them objective, rational, answers...as far as I can.

Only to people who (also) take no responsibility and never think twice about the harm they can do by spewing misinformation would that seem childish. Only to people equally adverse to logic and objectivity and reaching out to other people to actually help them understand, would my remarks seem discomfiting.

I answered a fellow asking about the discrepancy between the stick and the HB of his foot. I gave him constructive, objective advice. Chogall popped in with no advice whatsoever except that it didn't matter. That's misinformation...even criminal misinformation...and insofar as the only reason he posts such bogus crap is to be contentious and set himself up as an authority on subjects he has no right to claim authority for, it needs to be addressed.

Only to people equally committed to contentiousness for the sake of contention would such behaviour seem acceptable.

Your remark is simply a variation of "it doesn't matter."

Edmund Burke said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Or to say it doesn't matter.

Perhaps my determination to "get it right", to take responsibility is childish.

And perhaps your and chogall's objection to that is just adolescent angst and peevishness. Keyboard warriors and E-experts...the bored and restless.

--
Edited by DWFII - 11/12/15 at 6:00am
post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Why? Because I take responsibility for what I say. Because people come here seeking information and knowledge...and help. And I try to give them objective, rational, answers...as far as I can.

Only to people who (also) take no responsibility and never think twice about the harm they can do by spewing misinformation would that seem childish.

I answered a fellow asking about the discrepancy between the stick and the HB of his foot. I gave him constructive, objective advice. Chogall popped in with no advice whatsoever except that it didn't matter. That's misinformation...even criminal misinformation...and insofar as the only reason he posts such bogus crap is to be contentious and set himself up as an authority on subjects he has no right to claim authority for, it needs to be addressed.

Only to people equally committed to contentiousness for the sake of contention would such behaviour seem acceptable.

Your remark is simply a variation of "it doesn't matter."

Edmund Burke said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Or to say it doesn't matter.

 

My remark is not a variation of "it doesn't matter", its a simple allusion to the fact that i'm tired of reading you shit stir, like dredging up the argument on the shoe care thread, then again i'm not surprised you don't understand what i'm saying as you couldn't seem to understand the metaphor about ivory towers.

 

Ben Parker said "with great power comes great responsibility" so please check your own behaviour and attitude before addressing others.

post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post

My remark is not a variation of "it doesn't matter", its a simple allusion to the fact that i'm tired of reading you shit stir, like dredging up the argument on the shoe care thread, then again i'm not surprised you don't understand what i'm saying as you couldn't seem to understand the metaphor about ivory towers.

Ben Parker said "with great power comes great responsibility" so please check your own behaviour and attitude before addressing others.

Anything that makes you think or feel uncomfortable is bound to be tiresome to people like you. Check the time signatures between my last response to chogall and his renewing the argument. Three weeks...renewing a disagreement long since gone stale, who's stirring what? Jumping in with nonconstructive snark entirely unrelated to the subject being discussed...smells like bone fide "shit" to me.

But then the details that make up reality aren't something you seem to respect.

You ask why I responded to him ...the simple answer is because in just the same way that you and a few others take offense at me answering valid questions with the full weight of first hand experience and certain knowledge (none of which you can muster for yourselves), I take offense at pretense. At people presuming to give advice to others with sincere questions when they haven't earned the right to give advice. Especially bogus advice--such as yours about taking responsibility...if only because I have no power not conferred by experience and logic and a willingness to reach out to help others.

I take offense at you pretending to be interested in these discussions for any substantive reason. That's your MO. Even when I'm taking offense at poseurs, I am conscious of the subject at hand and addressing it. What objective did your post serve? You didn't add anything constructive to the discussion about fitting...it's been my experience that you seldom do. You just jumped in because you wanted a piece of the action. It is my suspicion that the reason for that is that you don't have anything constructive to say. At least you're honest in your ignorance. That's a step in the right direction.

It's offensive to see people damn rationality and objectivity in what seems a single minded quest to make everybody in the world stupid. In their quest to pretend to knowledge and expertise and authority they have not earned.

Evil and stupidity will triumph...everything points to it. We can only hope to hold it at bay for a little while, only hope to shine a small light into a few dark corners.

But then again, I'm not surprised you don't understand what I'm saying or appreciate Asimov's difference between ignorance and knowledge or between pretense and authenticity.

You and chogall work so hard to undermine and discredit anyone who has legitimate insights and authority--coming back to a dead discussion weeks later with more argument, jumping in with snark that contributes nothing--but again, I'm not surprised. Benjamin Franklin warned of this centuries ago when he said “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.”

And yes, it is a variation of "it doesn't matter." Because if it did matter, you'd have something constructive and positive to contribute...at least once in a while.

--
Edited by DWFII - 11/12/15 at 7:11am
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