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Buying shoes for your arch size? - Page 3

post #31 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Oh, I'm not critical of you personally, I'm critical of the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. That you've never done any of this in your life...never had to fit a foot, never had to look analytically at what constitutes a fit and never had to take responsibility for your mistakes or decisions. Or your words.

And yet you feel free to give advice to others...advice that may harm their health. Advice that is simply wrong.

Bottom line is that you don't take any responsibility for what you are telling people. Bottom line is that in the absence of hands on experience...other than keyboard experience, IOW...you've never even taken the responsibility to make sure you've got it right.

And while it's true you didn't add any philosophical stuff, you didn't add anything real or practical or constructive either. Just contrary opinions based on wishful thinking and fantasy. I'll take issue with you for that all day, every day.

And you'll deserve it.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

Yes, yes, Mr. Pseudo Podiatrist.

 

Thanks for letting me know my experience is wrong and I am not responsible for my own feet!

 

What's next, you going to tell me that I don't know what a proper fit is? Or my experiences of getting shoes made is null and invalid?

post #32 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post


I'm asking all this btw. since I only recently learned of HB fit myself. I was simply mentioning that with a HB of 9 and a length of 8 it seems rather impossible to get a toe box thats too small since you either get the right toe box (8) but wrong HB fit or a toe box that's too large (9) with the right HB fit (unless you are a EEE and get an A shoe). If not so, please point out where I misunderstand the whole thing. That's a serious question since I have problems with fit frequently myself.

I think we already saw that the claim of 13 was probably not true.

 

Shoes a size or width too big w/ stick length won't usually be a problem; a very good fit can be achieved through using after market insoles and arch supports.

 

On the other hand, if HB size is smaller than stick size, then its ridiculously stupid to buy for the HB size.

 

I've been persuaded by a fitter to order a pair of MTO shoes, half size smaller than my usual size, because he said the arch fit is really good with the smaller size.  I thought, sure, why not, he's the expert and I am willing to listen.

 

They turned out to be very painful to walk/hike in for my larger foot with the shorter stick length and insufficient toe room, all while having good arch fit.

post #33 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Thanks for letting me know my experience is wrong and I am not responsible for my own feet!

What's next, you going to tell me that I don't know what a proper fit is? Or my experiences of getting shoes made is null and invalid?

Isaac Asimov said "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States..."

Sure, you have experience with your feet. But that doesn't mean you understand feet. Your experiences are not universal, IOW--they don't apply to anyone but you.

Nor do they trump medicine, science, or physics...which is what we're talking about when we discuss the anatomy of the foot. It's not the same as having a broad range of experience with diverse feet. And it damn sure doesn't qualify you, or give you the right or the insight, to advise other people.

It's like the example of smoking (which you obviously didn't pay any attention to). What you do with your lungs is your business...up to a point; what you do with your feet is your business. But just because you have no ill effects (so far) from smoking doesn't make it less harmful. Nor less 'criminal' to foist off on others.

Too many people think that wearing shoes is the same as knowing and understanding shoes. Too many think having feet is the same as knowing or understanding feet.

It's not so.

Too many think that having a thought makes it truth.

That's not so, either.

--
Edited by DWFII - 10/22/15 at 11:04am
post #34 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Yes, yes, Mr. Pseudo Podiatrist.

Thanks for letting me know my experience is wrong and I am not responsible for my own feet!

What's next, you going to tell me that I don't know what a proper fit is? Or my experiences of getting shoes made is null and invalid?

And just for clarity...not for you so much as for everyone else reading this discussion...

You're right, I am not a podiatrist. But what I do...and have done for most of my life...shares many of the same perspectives and goals as podiatry. Partakes of, and values, the same sets of assumptions and knowledge. Aspires to the same level of professionalism and professional expertise.

In that context it needs to be said that your opinions and experiences are your own and you are free to express them. But lacking experience and knowledge, they are just that--opinions.

And when(as a quick review of this thread and the origins of this disagreement--post #8 and #10 makes clear) those opinions are expressed entirely as a way of contradicting someone who has spent his whole professional life analyzing, studying, testing and implementing direct hands-on experiences on a daily basis, it's nothing short of petulance...and, as evidenced, contributes nothing concrete or real.
post #35 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Shoes a size or width too big w/ stick length won't usually be a problem; a very good fit can be achieved through using after market insoles and arch supports.

On the other hand, if HB size is smaller than stick size, then its ridiculously stupid to buy for the HB size.

I've been persuaded by a fitter to order a pair of MTO shoes, half size smaller than my usual size, because he said the arch fit is really good with the smaller size.  I thought, sure, why not, he's the expert and I am willing to listen.

They turned out to be very painful to walk/hike in for my larger foot with the shorter stick length and insufficient toe room, all while having good arch fit.

It could (perhaps obviously) be noted that, while the correct HB distance is necessary for a correct fit, it is not necessarily sufficient. Simply having a shoe with the correct HB length will not insure the shoe still won't hurt your feet. Obviously, one must also make sure the insole is sufficiently wide, that there is the necessary space beyond the toes, that the girths are appropriate for the feet, etc.

However, your experience does not negate the basic fact that the correct HB length is the first, and a necessary, aspect of a correct fit.

Why is that? Several reasons, all of them relating to how the foot moves as one walks, plus the fact that shoes have heels, which makes wearing shoes different than walking barefoot, for example.

A shoe is made on a last. The last is designed with a 'tread line,' which is where the shoe will touch the ground in the forefoot area when you walk; the treadline goes from inside joint (a.k.a ball) to the outside joint, in a curved shape that mimics the curve of your foot's 5 joints. The treadline is where, when you walk, your forefoot hits the ground, absorbs and dissipates shock, and allows you to 'push off' as your weight moves toward your toes.

Furthermore, the last is widest at the ball (as is, as a general proposition, your foot). The shape of the last is designed to hold or lock your ball (and hence foot) in the proper location inside the shoe. Given the fact that we wear heeled shoes, gravity will try to pull your feet down/forward in your shoes -- albeit gently in the case of circa. 1 inch heel heights -- so having your foot locked into position inside the shoe is important.

Also, the last has 'toe spring,' such that the toe of the last is off the ground; thus, the last (and hence the shoe) will angle up from the joint to the toe.

So, what happens if you have an incorrect fit? If the HB is too short, then your joint is going to be in front of the tread line of the last and the shoe. When you walk, your foot will be landing behind the joints of your foot, with your weight landing in a spot where your foot is not designed to land. Furthermore, it may well be that your joint is getting squeezed by the shoe, since the joint is in an area of the shoe where the shoe is getting smaller/narrower. None of that is, obviously, good for your feet.

If the HB is too long, what happens is that your foot is, again, not landing in the proper location. It is going to land too far forward, toward your toes. While I think this is less likely to be harmful than landing too far rearward, it is still undesirable. Also, because of the toe spring built into the shoe, you foot/toes will trying to flex where it is not designed to flex.

Perhaps more important, your foot is going to have a strong tendency to slide forward in the shoe, as the shoe really relies on the proper joint location to restrain the foot. When your foot slides forward, your big toe is pushed toward the inside/middle of the foot, which sideways movement creates torque at the inside joint/ball. Having this happen repeatedly, and in an ongoing way, is what causes bunions due to inflammation of the joint. Why do women who wear high heels get bunions? Because the steep angle of the shoe makes the foot slide forward (even if the ball is properly located, there is only so much restraint the shoe can provide relative to gravity), smashing the big toe sideways, continually irritating and deforming the joint.

So, having the correct HB length is critical to correct fit. Can one get away without it? Sure, in many cases. The human body is a very resilient thing, and our feet can take a lot of abuse. However, that reality does not negate the basic fact that HB length is a basic element of a correct fit.
post #36 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

It could (perhaps obviously) be noted that, while the correct HB distance is necessary for a correct fit, it is not necessarily sufficient. Simply having a shoe with the correct HB length will not insure the shoe still won't hurt your feet. Obviously, one must also make sure the insole is sufficiently wide, that there is the necessary space beyond the toes, that the girths are appropriate for the feet, etc.

However, your experience does not negate the basic fact that the correct HB length is the first, and a necessary, aspect of a correct fit.

cheers.gif

Thank you! I made the same point earlier...but, of course, in a more general context:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

For a bespoke maker, there is no either-or. For a shoe to fit properly, there is no either-or.

Of course, you don't want to have the toe box too short or your toes crammed and hurting. But
it's not either-or...it never is. For the bespoke maker...for the person who is really and truly engaged, it all must be right.

And again, in post #22...


Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

So, having the correct HB length is critical to correct fit. Can one get away without it? Sure, in many cases. The human body is a very resilient thing, and our feet can take a lot of abuse. However, that reality does not negate the basic fact that HB length is a basic element of a correct fit.


Another "ivory tower" shoemaker?! Bother!!

crackup[1].gif

--
Edited by DWFII - 10/22/15 at 1:17pm
post #37 of 91
The discussion whether the good fit of a last/shoe is decided in the fore-part or in the back-part has been going on for the best part of 150 years.

There are various theories, schools, national traditions which will never agree with each other. All Austro/Hungarian (and further into the Balkans) shoemaking is based on the 'scientific' method (Winkel-System )of Robert Knöfel (1834-84) which is totally at odds with the English, far more empirical method. The Latin (presumably) have other theories, so (again presumably) have the Americans. If you go with your one pair of feet to six different last/shoemakers, you'll end up with six different fittings. The last that you (the customer) feels most comfortable with is the best one (for you).

All theories are just a means to an end, not an end in itself.

If a shoe fits well in the back-part and across the top-line and has the appropriate arch support carved into the underside of the last, (I'm exaggerating now) the front can be style 'Darling Clementine' ("herring boxes without topses"). The shoe will still have a pretty good fit as the foot will be well-held in place and cannot slide around..
post #38 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

The discussion whether the good fit of a last/shoe is decided in the fore-part or in the back-part has been going on for the best part of 150 years.

There are various theories, schools, national traditions which will never agree with each other. All Austro/Hungarian (and further into the Balkans) shoemaking is based on the 'scientific' method (Winkel-System )of Robert Knöfel (1834-84) which is totally at odds with the English, far more empirical method. The Latin (presumably) have other theories, so (again presumably) have the Americans. If you go with your one pair of feet to six different last/shoemakers, you'll end up with six different fittings. The last that you (the customer) feels most comfortable with is the best one (for you).

All theories are just a means to an end, not an end in itself.

If a shoe fits well in the back-part and across the top-line and has the appropriate arch support carved into the underside of the last, (I'm exaggerating now) the front can be style 'Darling Clementine' ("herring boxes without topses"). The shoe will still have a pretty good fit as the foot will be well-held in place and cannot slide around..

All that's fine, but the real heart of the issue is the heel to ball length and how it, properly, corresponds to the foot.

That is what the OP inquired about.
post #39 of 91
Well heres a shot of the right foot in the Brannock. Did I put the arch slider about right? Looks like a 9 1/2 actually for arch to me.



Also you'll notice that the length is at 8. My AE Leeds in 8 hurt a loooot at the pinky. 8 1/2 still took a while to get comfortable (I stretched it and pre flexed). Back in Europe I'd even wear 40 comfortably. Those weren't dress shoes per se though, e.g. basically no tapered toe and I'd get suede.

Forgot to take a pic of the left but it was a 9 for arch and 6 (!) for length.
post #40 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Well heres a shot of the right foot in the Brannock. Did I put the arch slider about right? Looks like a 9 1/2 actually for arch to me.

I think it's about right but it's so hard to tell from a photo. When I measure a foot I feel the bones. This is why I stress "hand-on" experience. Even if I owned a Brannock device, I would never use it. I don't make shoes to a "size" per se as much as to the foot.

All that said, I think you are on the right track...I said it before--most people don't know how to use a Brannock. And that's because they don't understand the foot. If you line up the pointer on the joint slider with the ridge on the dorsal surface of the foot, the reading will be off, every time.

It appears in the photo that you have the pointer back slightly from that ridge...and I think that's the correct way to do it.
post #41 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I think it's about right but it's so hard to tell from a photo. When I measure a foot I feel the bones. This is why I stress "hand-on" experience. Even if I owned a Brannock device, I would never use it. I don't make shoes to a "size" per se as much as to the foot.

All that said, I think you are on the right track...I said it before--most people don't know how to use a Brannock. And that's because they don't understand the foot. If you line up the pointer on the joint slider with the ridge on the dorsal surface of the foot, the reading will be off, every time.

It appears in the photo that you have the pointer back slightly from that ridge...and I think that's the correct way to do it.

Thanks a lot! I read on measuring with the Brannock here and on the brannock site before and I felt the bones before sliding it. So I guess thats why the cheapo on sale suede 9M weren't fitting that terribly. Stretched them like I did the 8 1/2 EEE AE and they're my rain shoes now wink.gif
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Thanks a lot! I read on measuring with the Brannock here and on the brannock site before and I felt the bones before sliding it. So I guess thats why the cheapo on sale suede 9M weren't fitting that terribly. Stretched them like I did the 8 1/2 EEE AE and they're my rain shoes now wink.gif

FWIW...one of the makers who had an particularly large influence on me esp. in my early years was Sam Luchesse--a third generation boot and shoemaker from a family of Italian shoemakers.

He once famously said "If you're going to fit them wrong, fit them long."

Fitting according to the stick length, when the heel to ball suggests a longer size would be more appropriate, will do more harm to the foot than vice versa, IOW.
post #43 of 91
Fun fact. Trying to find a brannock to measure myself I went to the closest place first, a Payless Shoesource. They did have one and it had a HB slider. But instead of sizes there was just a Payless Shoesource logo next to it... Next at Sears I couldn't find one at all! Finally The Bay had a proper one.
post #44 of 91
Am i measuring correctly? I have plantar faciitis in this foot is it because im wearing the wrong size? I usually take a US 12 [IMG][IMG]



post #45 of 91
here is a picture of where that foot bends in a size 12 shoe


mind this foot has pain when walking
is this caused by the size?


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