or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Buying shoes for your arch size?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Buying shoes for your arch size? - Page 2

post #16 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

facepalm.gif

Words of wisdom from someone who has never made a shoe, never tried to fit a foot, and whose entire compass of knowledge about shoes is comprised of Maui-Wowie pipe dreams and reading posts on the Internet.

--

Ive worn plenty of shoes. And suffered a few times from perfect arch length fit but crushing toe box after a mile of walking.

Lesson learned? I would rather have arch length not exactly aligned than having toe box too short killing my toes.

A bespoke shoemaker in his bespoke ivory towers doesn't understand the sufferings of people buying RTW. What a surprise!
post #17 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Ive worn plenty of shoes. And suffered a few times from perfect arch length fit but crushing toe box after a mile of walking.

Lesson learned? I would rather have arch length not exactly aligned than having toe box too short killing my toes.

A bespoke shoemaker in his bespoke ivory towers doesn't understand the sufferings of people buying RTW. What a surprise!

Ivory tower?! This illustrates how completely divorced from reality you are...how blinded by your own fantasies. And how delusional and misguided your comments are.

A bespoke maker is hardly in an ivory tower. It is engaged, dirt-under-the-fingernails, hands-on work that has immediate feedback and consequences. When a maker analyzes a foot and makes a shoe he, personally, has to answer for the fit. He personally has to take responsibility the mistakes he makes. That's not "ivory tower," that's life in the trenches.

Someone living in an ivory tower can strut about pontificating on subjects they have no hard objective experience with. Have no real knowledge of, and have no responsibility to get right. Ring a bell? Look in the mirror. It doesn't matter to to the fantasist or keyboard warrior if the advice they give is misinformed or speculative or even bad. To such people, it's like a video game--no consequences. Die a hundred times, get it wrong a thousand times...who cares? Just restart.

Not being responsible for the consequences of what you say and the impact your ill-informed advice will have on people, living in a fantasy world with no contact with the realities of shoemaking--that's the very definition of "ivory tower." Divorced from reality.

And the fact that you raise the "either-or" bogeymen only serves to further underscore your ignorance and unfitness to advise others.

For a bespoke maker, there is no either-or. For a shoe to fit properly, there is no either-or.

Of course, you don't want to have the toe box too short or your toes crammed and hurting. But
it's not either-or...it never is. For the bespoke maker...for the person who is really and truly engaged, it all must be right.

None of that is ivory tower.

It is, in fact, as "in the trenches" as anything can be.

--
Edited by DWFII - 10/14/15 at 8:18am
post #18 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Ive worn plenty of shoes. And suffered a few times from perfect arch length fit but crushing toe box after a mile of walking.

Lesson learned? I would rather have arch length not exactly aligned than having toe box too short killing my toes.

A bespoke shoemaker in his bespoke ivory towers doesn't understand the sufferings of people buying RTW. What a surprise!

I hope you actually take the time to read the reply DWF II posted to this comment. I hope you can divorce yourself from your blinders and actually take in what he wrote. You seem reasonably smart and I have trouble understanding why you react with such disrespect, disdain, obnoxiousness and douchebagery to the information he posts in this thread. The condescension in your posts is actually quite embarrassing.

 

You post straw man after straw man, half truth, and other misleading things repeatedly and it doesnt make them true. Why? You are obviously very passionate about shoes, their construction and care. You have an opportunity to learn an immense amount from an EXPERT. Not an internet expert. Not a keyboard warrior. An expert who has been making shoes and boots with his own hands for longer than I have been alive. 

 

Instead of questioning for the purpose of learning, you attack and belittle and it makes you look like a foolish, small man. I dont care that you disagree with someone, but it does bother me that you throw such invective and scorn at someone who has offered so much knowledge and insight to this board, who incidentally, knows more than all but maybe two or three other people on this board.

 

All is not lost. You have an opportunity to learn, disagree, be skeptical and participate. All it takes is a change in attitude and refraining from your current attack mode. There are a lot of people on this forum who would have immense respect for you if you were to apologize, myself included. Or, you can continue to put cottage cheese in your gas tank because you know best, even though your mechanic tells you that it wont work. Your choice.

 

Be well.

post #19 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post

I hope you actually take the time to read the reply DWF II posted to this comment. I hope you can divorce yourself from your blinders and actually take in what he wrote. You seem reasonably smart and I have trouble understanding why you react with such disrespect, disdain, obnoxiousness and douchebagery to the information he posts in this thread. The condescension in your posts is actually quite embarrassing.

You post straw man after straw man, half truth, and other misleading things repeatedly and it doesnt make them true. Why? You are obviously very passionate about shoes, their construction and care. You have an opportunity to learn an immense amount from an EXPERT. Not an internet expert. Not a keyboard warrior. An expert who has been making shoes and boots with his own hands for longer than I have been alive. 

Instead of questioning for the purpose of learning, you attack and belittle and it makes you look like a foolish, small man. I dont care that you disagree with someone, but it does bother me that you throw such invective and scorn at someone who has offered so much knowledge and insight to this board, who incidentally, knows more than all but maybe two or three other people on this board.

All is not lost. You have an opportunity to learn, disagree, be skeptical and participate. All it takes is a change in attitude and refraining from your current attack mode. There are a lot of people on this forum who would have immense respect for you if you were to apologize, myself included. Or, you can continue to put cottage cheese in your gas tank because you know best, even though your mechanic tells you that it wont work. Your choice.

Be well.

"Arch fit is really secondary; it could affect the long term foot health but it's not going to cause any short term pain.

Whats the point of getting great arch fit when the toe box is too short or too long? Or there's not enough vamp space?

Toe box width/length and vanp space are way more important and affects directly the wearability of the shoes."

This is chogalls first post on this thread, it neither condescends, belittles, attacks or anything you else you accuse him of.

Dwf then responds to him with scorn, belittles his opinion and accuses him of knowing nothing but what he reads on the Internet.

Regardless of what has occurred on other threads it doesn't have to carry on to others, but I think it's plain to see who is guilty of attacking whom and also judging from your own post who is being blinkered.

Second to that I'm not sure what your post adds other than adding to the attack and contradicting yourself as a result.

In response to the op, any ill fitting could theoretically cause problems with your foot but I'd definitely overlook the arch than take a shoe that's too small. If it's causing too much of an issue and bespoke is out of your range then it's either an orthotic or making do with the best you can find I'm afraid, unfortunately with a foot like yours finding a decent one is going to be like finding a needle in a haystack.
post #20 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Arch fit is really secondary; it could affect the long term foot health but it's not going to cause any short term pain.

Whats the point of getting great arch fit when the toe box is too short or too long? Or there's not enough vamp space?

Toe box width/length and vanp space are way more important and affects directly the wearability of the shoes.

Now that, I find strange. Who would choose to ignore long term foot health, knowingly? Unknowingly, sure. But knowingly?

Also, since his HB is larger than the foot length measurement, how would he get a shoe thats too small from that? I'd say he would get one that might be too big, as the heel and other parts of the shoe might be too large when taking a shoe that's a full size larger than foot length. Aren't there quite a few shoes with an elongated toe (e.g. AE 333 last)? And some of those are quite tapered so nobody can actually expect to fit their foot into that part of the shoe. Hows that so different from getting a shoe a size or so larger and maybe finding something with a last with a narrower heel if thats a problem?

Somehow I think that should be the lesser problem though. I have lived my whole life with a left foot thats a full size smaller in length than my right foot.
post #21 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post


Now that, I find strange. Who would choose to ignore long term foot health, knowingly? Unknowingly, sure. But knowingly?

Also, since his HB is larger than the foot length measurement, how would he get a shoe thats too small from that? I'd say he would get one that might be too big, as the heel and other parts of the shoe might be too large when taking a shoe that's a full size larger than foot length. Aren't there quite a few shoes with an elongated toe (e.g. AE 333 last)? And some of those are quite tapered so nobody can actually expect to fit their foot into that part of the shoe. Hows that so different from getting a shoe a size or so larger and maybe finding something with a last with a narrower heel if thats a problem?

Somehow I think that should be the lesser problem though. I have lived my whole life with a left foot thats a full size smaller in length than my right foot.

He's not ignoring long term foot health, wearing shoes that are too large or too small are also damaging to your long term foot health, having worked with a chiropodist for many years I can tell you that large shoes are just as bad as small shoes or any other point of ill fit. In the short term they will cause discomfort and blisters, they can also cause lost toenails and in the long term bunions and hammertoes. This is because stress is placed on the wrong parts of the foot, also larger shoes will develop larger/deeper creases.

 

What Chogall is trying to point out is that in trying to accommodate such a problematic arch you are more than likely to compromise how well the shoe fits in other areas which as pointed out above is not only bad for long term foot health but also immediate comfort.

 

From my personal opinion a shoe that is too large is not only uncomfortable its totally unwearable. That is of course unless you try and modify the shoe with a filler, but then again that would more than likely effect the arch fit that you were trying to accommodate in the first place.

 

Its all very well and good trying to find RTW shoes that are just right for your foot, but given how many styles and manufacturers there are it isnt going to practical to try and find them. As such whilst not ideal compromises have to be made. 

post #22 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Now that, I find strange. Who would choose to ignore long term foot health, knowingly? Unknowingly, sure. But knowingly?

Also, since his HB is larger than the foot length measurement, how would he get a shoe thats too small from that? I'd say he would get one that might be too big, as the heel and other parts of the shoe might be too large when taking a shoe that's a full size larger than foot length. Aren't there quite a few shoes with an elongated toe (e.g. AE 333 last)? And some of those are quite tapered so nobody can actually expect to fit their foot into that part of the shoe. Hows that so different from getting a shoe a size or so larger and maybe finding something with a last with a narrower heel if thats a problem?

Somehow I think that should be the lesser problem though. I have lived my whole life with a left foot thats a full size smaller in length than my right foot.

Re-quoted for relevance...

To advocate for ignoring the HB (or even considering it secondary)...presumably almost entirely because of laziness or convenience...is to advocate for a misfit. Period.

If a person buys a shoe that is too short, it is a misfit. If they buy shoes that are too long, it is a misfit.

Shoes that have gaping toplines are not properly fit.

Shoes that can be laced up to the point where the facings close and yet there is still looseness over the instep, are not fit.

Shoes that lace up with the facing more than a half an inch apart, are not fit.

Shoes that are wider in the joint/treadline than the weight bearing plantar surface of the foot are not fit.

Shoes that are wider in the heel seat than the foot are not fit.

Shoes that cramp the toes are not fit.

Shoes that have so much room beyond the toes that the foot cannot control the toe of the shoe, are not fit.

Shoes that do not fit and support the arch of the foot and are built on lasts that are longer or shorter than the HB of the foot, do not fit. Period.

No one is advocating for deliberately, knowingly, choosing a misfit....except those who favour expediency over important things--like health.

And yes, all kinds of problems, short term and long term, can result.

A foot with a long heel to ball that is placed in a shoe that is shorter than required for that foot is more likely to develop hammer toes and bunions. The arch is not supported and weight of the body...the entire body...is not transferred as it should be. We see nearly the same thing with women's high heeled shoes and the results are almost always the same, esp. long term.

A foot that has a long arch (long HB) always has short toes. This is simple physiology. A short or long arch is always in the context, and relative to, the overall "stick"--the length of the foot. If the long arched foot had long toes, the overall length of the foot would be, well, longer, and the shoe size would not be an issue. The Brannock would yield a foot length consistent with the arch length.

It's when the two don't correspond that we need to decide how we size the foot. And what the critical parameters and definitions are--do we size by overall length or by heel to ball?

There are very good...unimpeachable...physiological reasons to assert that the foot is only properly fit when the last the shoe is built on corresponds to the HB of the foot. Not the least of which is that shoes have extra room (three full sizes), beyond the assumed end of the toes, built in...as part of the design. But fundamentally, any logical, rational analysis of the foot, the mechanics of the foot, and its architecture demands that overall length of the foot cannot be the most important factor in determining fit or size.

Beyond all that, feet that have long arches...or short arches (long toes, short toes relative to overall length)...are only "problematic" if you ignore them. Such feet are not, in and of themselves, "problematic." If, all other things being equal, there is no chronic pain or deviations in gait, then we are dealing with a healthy, non-problematic foot. There is no foot configuration, barring distress, that is not "normal."

Fit is complex. The closer you want to get to a good fit, the more complex it is. How could it be otherwise? The foot is one of the most architecturally complex structures in nature.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 10/22/15 at 7:05am
post #23 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post


Now that, I find strange. Who would choose to ignore long term foot health, knowingly? Unknowingly, sure. But knowingly?

Also, since his HB is larger than the foot length measurement, how would he get a shoe thats too small from that? I'd say he would get one that might be too big, as the heel and other parts of the shoe might be too large when taking a shoe that's a full size larger than foot length. Aren't there quite a few shoes with an elongated toe (e.g. AE 333 last)? And some of those are quite tapered so nobody can actually expect to fit their foot into that part of the shoe. Hows that so different from getting a shoe a size or so larger and maybe finding something with a last with a narrower heel if thats a problem?

Somehow I think that should be the lesser problem though. I have lived my whole life with a left foot thats a full size smaller in length than my right foot.


@giants4life17 has stick size 11 and H-B size is 13 on Brannock.  What would you recommend? Size 13 where he could wear his shoes like slippers/clogs? Or size 11 where the H-B fit is not spot on for a pair of shoes that has zero arch support?  Or size 11 and add in OTC arch support pads? Or compromise to size 12 with an insole?

 

RTW fit is a compromise.  It would be ridiculous to fit for H-B; what's the point of buying perfect H-B size but have the shoes being 1-2 sizes too long or 1-2 sizes too short?  Especially when former will/might cause long term foot health, and the latter will kill your feet immediately.

post #24 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post
 

I hope you actually take the time to read the reply DWF II posted to this comment. I hope you can divorce yourself from your blinders and actually take in what he wrote. You seem reasonably smart and I have trouble understanding why you react with such disrespect, disdain, obnoxiousness and douchebagery to the information he posts in this thread. The condescension in your posts is actually quite embarrassing.

 

You post straw man after straw man, half truth, and other misleading things repeatedly and it doesnt make them true. Why? You are obviously very passionate about shoes, their construction and care. You have an opportunity to learn an immense amount from an EXPERT. Not an internet expert. Not a keyboard warrior. An expert who has been making shoes and boots with his own hands for longer than I have been alive. 

 

Instead of questioning for the purpose of learning, you attack and belittle and it makes you look like a foolish, small man. I dont care that you disagree with someone, but it does bother me that you throw such invective and scorn at someone who has offered so much knowledge and insight to this board, who incidentally, knows more than all but maybe two or three other people on this board.

 

All is not lost. You have an opportunity to learn, disagree, be skeptical and participate. All it takes is a change in attitude and refraining from your current attack mode. There are a lot of people on this forum who would have immense respect for you if you were to apologize, myself included. Or, you can continue to put cottage cheese in your gas tank because you know best, even though your mechanic tells you that it wont work. Your choice.

 

Be well.

 

You mean his reaction to my comments based on my personal experiences with critical attacks?

 

And to keep in mind, this is my original comment, practical and without any philosophical stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Arch fit is really secondary; it could affect the long term foot health but it's not going to cause any short term pain.

Whats the point of getting great arch fit when the toe box is too short or too long? Or there's not enough vamp space?

Toe box width/length and vanp space are way more important and affects directly the wearability of the shoes.
post #25 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

@giants4life17
has stick size 11 and H-B size is 13 on Brannock.  What would you recommend? Size 13 where he could wear his shoes like slippers/clogs? Or size 11 where the H-B fit is not spot on for a pair of shoes that has zero arch support?  Or size 11 and add in OTC arch support pads? Or compromise to size 12 with an insole?

RTW fit is a compromise.  It would be ridiculous to fit for H-B; what's the point of buying perfect H-B size but have the shoes being 1-2 sizes too long or 1-2 sizes too short?  Especially when former will/might cause long term foot health, and the latter will kill your feet immediately.

I'm asking all this btw. since I only recently learned of HB fit myself. I was simply mentioning that with a HB of 9 and a length of 8 it seems rather impossible to get a toe box thats too small since you either get the right toe box (8) but wrong HB fit or a toe box that's too large (9) with the right HB fit (unless you are a EEE and get an A shoe). If not so, please point out where I misunderstand the whole thing. That's a serious question since I have problems with fit frequently myself.

I think we already saw that the claim of 13 was probably not true.
post #26 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

You mean his reaction to my comments based on my personal experiences with critical attacks?

And to keep in mind, this is my original comment, practical and without any philosophical stuff.

Oh, I'm not critical of you personally, I'm critical of the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. That you've never done any of this in your life...never had to fit a foot, never had to look analytically at what constitutes a fit and never had to take responsibility for your mistakes or decisions. Or your words.

And yet you feel free to give advice to others...advice that may harm their health. Advice that is simply wrong.

Bottom line is that you don't take any responsibility for what you are telling people. Bottom line is that in the absence of hands on experience...other than keyboard experience, IOW...you've never even taken the responsibility to make sure you've got it right.

And while it's true you didn't add any philosophical stuff, you didn't add anything real or practical or constructive either. Just contrary opinions based on wishful thinking and fantasy. I'll take issue with you for that all day, every day.

And you'll deserve it.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 10/21/15 at 6:04pm
post #27 of 91
I think I get all the different misfits DWF described, except this one:
Quote:
Shoes that have so much room beyond the toes that the foot cannot control the toe of the shoe, are not fit.

This one I don't quite understand. What exactly is the toe of the shoe and what does control mean? Wouldn't a style that has an elongated toe be exactly like this by definition? I guess I just don't know what the toe of the shoe is. I can't control the foremost part of my Carmina double monks for example. My foot doesn't actually even stick under the toe cap (left foot) but they feel really great and fitting. The right foot does, but feels a bit snug but not much (suede).
post #28 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

I think I get all the different misfits DWF described, except this one:
This one I don't quite understand. What exactly is the toe of the shoe and what does control mean? Wouldn't a style that has an elongated toe be exactly like this by definition? I guess I just don't know what the toe of the shoe is. I can't control the foremost part of my Carmina double monks for example. My foot doesn't actually even stick under the toe cap (left foot) but they feel really great and fitting. The right foot does, but feels a bit snug but not much (suede).

Well, the standard clearance beyond the end of the longest toe of the foot is three full sizes...about an inch. Yes, some elongated toes, and narrow toes, are longer than that. But beyond a certain point the toe of the shoe will curl up. Not really detrimental to comfort, provided the rest of the shoe fits, but not what a bespoke maker would like to see.

I don't want to talk about specific brands or makers, but, in general, the toe puff (stiffener) is going to extend back roughly two inches or more. So even if you can't feel it...and it will be skived (thinned) pretty rigourously the further from the end of the toe...pressure on the insole anywhere in that radius will pull the whole toe down.

If the toe stiffener doesn't extend that far back (or close), I don't know what to tell you. It's unusual.
post #29 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, the standard clearance beyond the end of the longest toe of the foot is three full sizes...about an inch. Yes, some elongated toes, and narrow toes, are longer than that. But beyond a certain point the toe of the shoe will curl up. Not really detrimental to comfort, provided the rest of the shoe fits, but not what a bespoke maker would like to see.

I don't want to talk about specific brands or makers, but, in general, the toe puff (stiffener) is going to extend back roughly two inches or more. So even if you can't feel it...and it will be skived (thinned) pretty rigourously the further from the end of the toe...pressure on the insole anywhere in that radius will pull the whole toe down.

If the toe stiffener doesn't extend that far back (or close), I don't know what to tell you. It's unusual.

Thank you for the explanation! That makes a lot of sense. I can probably help you out with the unusual here. My left foot is about a half Centimeter less wide than my right and the toes are much smaller. They never fully developed and I dont have nails on the three inner toes, only on pinky and big toe. However since I found out about HB I've gone and measured it and if I put the little knob in the right place both feet actually have about the same HB. But length wise this makes the left foot about a full size smaller if not more.

Heres the foot shape with socks on.

post #30 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post

Thank you for the explanation! That makes a lot of sense. I can probably help you out with the unusual here. My left foot is about a half Centimeter less wide than my right and the toes are much smaller. They never fully developed and I dont have nails on the three inner toes, only on pinky and big toe. However since I found out about HB I've gone and measured it and if I put the little knob in the right place both feet actually have about the same HB. But length wise this makes the left foot about a full size smaller if not more.

Heres the foot shape with socks on.

Yes, here is a real life illustration of why HB is so important.. Aside from a little bit of an issue...perhaps, not guaranteed...with the toe turning up, if the HB is correct the shoe (your shoe), fits fine. And the space beyond the toes is more or less inconsequential. But if you were to buy shoes based on the "stick" of that foot you would never be comfortable--they would be too short.

FWIW, I have built a lot of footwear for folks with the same problem but magnified. Some don't care if the one shoe looks smaller than their other and so we build the shoe to the foot--shortening up the forepart. It's an ideal solution mechanically, physiologically.

Others don't want that discrepancy announcing that they are not perfect in form and figure. At which point, one solution is to stiffen the forepart a little, or make a longer toe stiffener, to make sure that the toes will control the end of the shoe even though the shoe is too long for the foot.

And still others just live with it. If the HB is correct, no harm, no foul.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Buying shoes for your arch size?