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Advantages of a $1000 Pair of Shoes - Page 27

post #391 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

How can you be certain, that damage did not occur when sole and cork were removed?
DSC_4446+%28Large%29.JPG
Gemming was introduced into shoe manufacture in the late 50s and by the mid 60s it had been accepted by virtual all manufactures. If the technique is as disastrous as some here claim, why is bonding failure so rare.
For all those who claim the superiority of hand welting, here is hand welting failure:
lose3.jpg
lose6.jpg
I don't say it happens frequently, but it does happen if the shoemaker/firm wants to cut corners, by placing the stitches to wide and/or not pulling them tightly enough.
Let the firm who made those shoes be nameless. They had, maybe four years ago, major problems with their (hand) welting. They might have overcome them now. I haven't seen their products (in the flesh) for quite a while.

The top photo, that is totally gemming failure unrelated to the disassembly. Just look at that canvas, it is now brown and green and curled on itself in the failed areas, not white or freshly shredded/torn. This gemming failure probably started a few years ago per the condition that canvas is in.

The hand welt photos show a loose stitching but not failure. Certainly sub standard or not what i would accept.

Quite simply gemming is a factory solution to time/cost cutting and one that is certainly acceptable in mid range $500 shoes. At the $1000 range it is highly questionable to my values. Such a shoe would have to be god damn sublime in looks for me to even remotely consider. I am talking super model sublime.

edit: oops it seems the wrong photo is quoted
post #392 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post


Either state FACTS, cite your knowledge, in detail, or BUZZ OFF.
Your snarky, condescending, and accusatory posts which are completely devoid of actual content are exactly what I am railing against here.
You know perfectly well that a lot more time, attention, and craftsmenship goes into a pair of G&Gs or EGs than into a benchgrade shoe.
 

 

The bit in bold actually applies to you and I'm sure that lots of posters in this thread would agree.

 

Which FACTS are you stating? You continue to make noob assumptions, and enforce your poorly informed opinions as if they are some kind of fact.

 

Just because you have two pairs of GG and owned a pair of EG once in your life, doesn't make you an authority on shoes. Nor does it confer any real knowledge in terms of construction unless you took your shoes apart and had somebody knowledgeable to explain all the differences. Even if this was the case, you would be basing your opinions on a very limited sample, making generalisations off the back of limited experience and very little knowledge is never credible imo.

 

For example tell me how do you profess to know that the linings used in C&J benchgrade are inferior to EG??? Elaborate in what way are they inferior?

 

I don't believe you know, but instead are just making this assumption based on the price of the goods. And that is what this thread is actually about, it's not about bespoke vs rtw per se, it's about the difference in quality if any between rtw shoes at the price point in question.

post #393 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirling View Post

The bit in bold actually applies to you and I'm sure that lots of posters in this thread would agree.

Which FACTS are you stating? You continue to make noob assumptions, and enforce your poorly informed opinions as if they are some kind of fact.

Just because you have two pairs of GG and owned a pair of EG once in your life, doesn't make you an authority on shoes. Nor does it confer any real knowledge in terms of construction unless you took your shoes apart and had somebody knowledgeable to explain all the differences. Even if this was the case, you would be basing your opinions on a very limited sample, making generalisations off the back of limited experience and very little knowledge is never credible imo.

For example tell me how do you profess to know that the linings used in C&J benchgrade are inferior to EG??? Elaborate in what way are they inferior?

I don't believe you know, but instead are just making this assumption based on the price of the goods. And that is what this thread is actually about, it's not about bespoke vs rtw per se, it's about the difference in quality if any between rtw shoes at the price point in question.

First, about the bit in bold. You will find that I give back what is given. If you address me with snark you will get it back. If you address me with respect you will get it back.

Now back to the detailed conversation.

1.) Sctually you have no idea of the investigations I've done. So you can just let those assertions go - because you simply have no basis on which to comment.

2.) I've never professed to be an expert - I've professed to point out the differences in qualityof materials and care of craftsmenship that are apparent by observation.

3.) You apparenlty equate quality with internal construction. That is fine, I get it. Personally I could care less about internal construction unless it affects the end user experience of the shoe. Does it make the shoe less durable in practical terms, less comfortable, etc. etc. I am perfectly well aware that all of the commercially made Northampton shoes (short of bespoke) use various quantities of synthetic components internally. Personally I could give a flip.

4.) Regarding linings: look inside a C&J benchgrade shoe then look inside a G&G or EG shoe - you will note the following: Benchgrade:lining not brought fully to edge of tongue/GG and EG:carefully fitted and stitched, Benchgrade:lining not precisely aligned with top of collar/GG and EG very precise, Benchgrade:stitching much more widely spaced than GG and EG, Benchgrade:loose threads, stop/start locations of stitching sloppy, GG and EG typically impeccible, Benchgrade leather thickness/hand slightly thinner than GG/EG, Benchgrade:undyed/GG,EG:dyed to match upper.

5.) You imply that perhaps this discussion is about the cost/value relationship between these differences in qualities. I have specifically attempted NOT to discuss this - as the value of something is subjective. I have attempted to keep this conversation to the physical facts of the differences between the two price points of shoes. As that is the OP's question. I have freely admitted over and over and over again that I completely acknowledge that the internal making is pretty darned similar between the two. The increases in 'quality' are almost all in the materials and the care/craftsmenship of the visible aspects of the end product. Do you have any quibble with this statement?
post #394 of 415
This is the type of thread that makes me love this forum. Thanks for enlightening the rest of us with your conversation, gents.
post #395 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraiche View Post

This is the type of thread that makes me love this forum. Thanks for enlightening the rest of us with your conversation, gents.

Wonder why, to me it's been tedious, confusing, filled with long and difficult to read posts, and in 27 pages nobody have come close to answer the real OP question imo.
post #396 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post


Wonder why, to me it's been tedious, confusing, filled with long and difficult to read posts, and in 27 pages nobody have come close to answer the real OP question imo.

I thought the answer we came to was "Vass are probably better made than JL or EG and half the price"? 

 

lol8[1].gif

post #397 of 415

I think you should look at the baseline quality you want, then go for value / marginal gains from there.

 

I will say though, shoes complete an outfit.

post #398 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Not in their best interest to front stab someone in the same industry of the same country, but they are certainly very knowledgeable.

A blog promoting bespoke handmade shoes has reason to say good things about a RTW shoe manufacturer because...? It was just a factory visit that anyone can go on, so it's not like they had to post about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

From the same blog:

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to accept that handwelting is better than Goodyear welting. All I was trying to say was that, just as there are people who do not recognise any differences in quality in factory-made shoes, there are also people (and bespoke shoemakers at that) who do. Whether it's because the latter can see things that we can't, or because their idea of quality is different, I don't know, but I hope we can be open-minded about this.
post #399 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by grendel View Post

I thought the answer we came to was "Vass are probably better made than JL or EG and half the price"? 

lol8%5B1%5D.gif

Well I don't know or care about construction but that is probably true, not only that but also just as nice leather and lasts, as well C&J handgrade, super nice leather and lasts at prices far from 1K, (and yes I'm stupid enough to own 1k+ shoes, the only ones that squeek like crazy btw) so the real answer is none plain and simple imo except for rare or exotic leathers and of course bespoke.
post #400 of 415
I could be wrong here but you guys that are humoring Hendrix should ask how many pairs of high quality shoes he owns. Just saying.
post #401 of 415
this is actually nothing to do with me and I didn't bring up this debate.

All I did was take issue with Gdot's argument that stylistic features are part of quality.

I don't really care about gemming, except for myself as a consumer, since I know the difference I always choose handwelted shoes. This is because a) I can't afford to buy shoes and have them recrafted when they only should need a resole b) I like to support makers that do things the best way, not the easiest c) I also just don't like the look of most of the high end English shoes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post

I could be wrong here but you guys that are humoring Hendrix should ask how many pairs of high quality shoes he owns. Just saying.

Read through the thread and you'll see that I was only talking about my own spending habbits.

I don't care what anyone else does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKDKid View Post


Oh, I'm perfectly happy to accept that handwelting is better than Goodyear welting. All I was trying to say was that, just as there are people who do not recognise any differences in quality in factory-made shoes, there are also people (and bespoke shoemakers at that) who do. Whether it's because the latter can see things that we can't, or because their idea of quality is different, I don't know, but I hope we can be open-minded about this.

Absolutely, I agree.

This is not why the debate was brought up (again).

If someone asks me to make a recommendation and/or describe the various methods of shoemaking, you can't ask me to ignore the fact that one method is better than the other just to appease the insecure.

And if someone asks me to evaluate and compare the quality of $1000 pairs of shoes I'm going to be honest.

You'll see in my post I described the methods of shoemaking as I know them.

I said "handwelting is better than GY welting", and it damn well is, there should be no debate here and I don't know why people continue to debate that.
post #402 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORE View Post

I could be wrong here but you guys that are humoring Hendrix should ask how many pairs of high quality shoes he owns. Just saying.

Honestly I don't understand very well, but just in case I'm no part of that, I respect Hendrix knowledge and I also think we have similar taste in shoes w some exceptions. A difference is I don't know one bit about shoe construction and I don't care, I care about leather quality, last and look in general, I just know that GY welted and hand welted shoes are generally well made and it's very unlikely that they will fail. Maybe I'm just easy on shoes, I have a pair of glued Ecco City shoes that I've been wearing a lot for 10 years and they are still in good shape.
post #403 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

If someone asks me to make a recommendation and/or describe the various methods of shoemaking, you can't ask me to ignore the fact that one method is better than the other just to appease the insecure.

 

Yes, please do... I've learned a lot from these discussions and the linked discussions on hand welting, gemming (and the failure thereof), etc. I don't have any really high-end shoes yet but I'd be interested in making wise decisions when I get there. From what I've gleaned from this thread, Vass and St. Crispin are very well regarded for quality of materials and top-notch construction and are a good value for the quality they provide. True? I'm unlikely to be in a position to have bespoke shoes made in the near future, so what's my next best option?

post #404 of 415
I've casually followed this thread and some of the specifics on shoemaking are lost on me, but are people saying that a pair of Vass is going to last twice as long as a pair of Carmina? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you say that Vass are the best value, that would have to be true.
post #405 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidus View Post

I've casually followed this thread and some of the specifics on shoemaking are lost on me, but are people saying that a pair of Vass is going to last twice as long as a pair of Carmina? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you say that Vass are the best value, that would have to be true.

facepalm.gif

No.
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