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Advantages of a $1000 Pair of Shoes - Page 26

post #376 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


How can you be certain, that damage did not occur when sole and cork were removed?

DSC_4446+%28Large%29.JPG

Gemming was introduced into shoe manufacture in the late 50s and by the mid 60s it had been accepted by virtual all manufactures. If the technique is as disastrous as some here claim, why is bonding failure so rare.

For all those who claim the superiority of hand welting, here is hand welting failure:

lose3.jpg

lose6.jpg


I don't say it happens frequently, but it does happen if the shoemaker/firm wants to cut corners, by placing the stitches to wide and/or not pulling them tightly enough.

Let the firm who made those shoes be nameless. They had, maybe four years ago, major problems with their (hand) welting. They might have overcome them now. I haven't seen their products (in the flesh) for quite a while.
post #377 of 416
How about another bespoke shoemaker's opinion? From carreducker's blog:
Quote:
We went to visit the Edward Green factory in Northampton this week. What a fantastic place. Having seen what they do, I can confidently say that they make the finest factory made shoes I have ever seen. Such attention to detail and a wonderful finish on the shoes. Hilary Freeman, the MD, generously spent time showing us round, and what really impressed us was her willingness to invest in changes to production to achieve the best results without cutting corners. She obviously cares passionately about the quality of her product and does not stint on achieving this. Great to see this attitude (that we share wholeheartedly) in a production shoe. This ethos really shows in the finished shoe, distinctly English and of a visibly superior quality.

- so what are they talking about here then?
post #378 of 416
I really did not mean for my comments to become about gemming.

I was simply pointing out that each point in shoemaking has the best methods, and slightly less good methods of manufacture.

I'm sure bengal-stripe would agree with me here.

I also don't think GY welting is a bad method of manufacture for shoes. It enables quick production and easy re-soling. OTOH, so can cemented construction if you add a midsole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

How can you be certain, that damage did not occur when sole and cork were removed? Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
DSC_4446+%28Large%29.JPG
Gemming was introduced into shoe manufacture in the late 50s and by the mid 60s it had been accepted by virtual all manufactures. If the technique is as disastrous as some here claim, why is bonding failure so rare.
For all those who claim the superiority of hand welting, here is hand welting failure: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
lose3.jpg
lose6.jpg
I don't say it happens frequently, but it does happen if the shoemaker/firm wants to cut corners, by placing the stitches to wide and/or not pulling them tightly enough.
Let the firm who made those shoes be nameless. They had, maybe four years ago, major problems with their (hand) welting. They might have overcome them now. I haven't seen their products (in the flesh) for quite a while.

Yes, absolutely, I actually believe that gemming failure is more likely to occur during re-soling - that's what the author of Permanent Style seemed to articulate anyway. The stress of pulling off the outsole pulls against the welt and brings up the gemming.

If you think about it, when the outsole is on, it itself provides the structural support to hold the shoe together.

When it's being pulled off it's going to put extra stress on the welt.

I agree that the shoe you've shown is a poor example of handwelting. However, even in this example, the welt can be re-attached to the insole. This happened with a pair of Vass recently that B nelson repaired.

I agree, it shouldn't happen in the first place and is a mark of poor work.

But comparing poor work of one method to standard work of another is not a fair comparison, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

And I don't mean to be snarky. But if the wearer isn't able to tell the difference, then why does it matter?
Are we presumed to be unable to tell if a shoe is no longer wearable? This seems rather improbable.
And by the way - a half sole would not be acceptable to me or to most of the wearers of better quality RTW shoes - I believe most folks on here would tell the cobbler to take his half sole and shove it up his.......A#$. Give us a little credit. We can tell if we paid for a full resole including a new heel and didn't get it.


a) what's wrong with a half resole?

b) The wearer might not be able to tell the difference when the outsole is on, but once the outsole is removed, there will be nothing holding the shoe together and you will have to go through extensive recrafting rather than resoling.

The whole point of welted shoes is that the outsole can be changed with relatively minimal fuss.

If this isn't the case, well, you may as well have cemented construction.

I could easily envisage an upper cemented between a midsole and an insole, and an outsole cemented to the midsole. Logically speaking, this would be just as stable (if not more stable than) goodyear welted shoes.
post #379 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


How can you be certain, that damage did not occur when sole and cork were removed?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

DSC_4446+%28Large%29.JPG

 


Gemming was introduced into shoe manufacture in the late 50s and by the mid 60s it had been accepted by virtual all manufactures. If the technique is as disastrous as some here claim, why is bonding failure so rare.
For all those who claim the superiority of hand welting, here is hand welting failure:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

lose3.jpg
lose6.jpg


I don't say it happens frequently, but it does happen if the shoemaker/firm wants to cut corners, by placing the stitches to wide and/or not pulling them tightly enough.
Let the firm who made those shoes be nameless. They had, maybe four years ago, major problems with their (hand) welting. They might have overcome them now. I haven't seen their products (in the flesh) for quite a while.

 

1)  I don't know, I am just paraphrasing Permanent Style's blog post and presume that PS ran the article through EG before posting.

 

2)  Care to elaborate on these two pictures?  Were they not lasted tight enough and welted tight enough so the upper became loose at the welt?  Vass?

post #380 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKDKid View Post

How about another bespoke shoemaker's opinion? From carreducker's blog:
- so what are they talking about here then?

 

Not in their best interest to front stab someone in the same industry of the same country, but they are certainly very knowledgeable.

post #381 of 416
bengal stripe:

I seriously didn't mean for this to start again.

My understanding is that, all other things being equal, handwelting is more sturdy construction than GY welting. If we take Permanent Style's example, we can see that a re-crafting occurred after just 5 years. I'm not wealthy, I don't want to have to pay for a whole re-crafting when resoling is all that the shoe should need. The fact that Edward Green seems to only offer re-crafting -not allowing the option of resoling - seems to me to be evidence to the fact that they are aware that the gemming will often need to be glued back down during re-soling.

I've made this choice based on what is affordable to me. It certainly doesn't mean that it applies to everyone here, and I frankly don't care what anyone else pays for a recraft.

Every shoemaker that i've read about, whether they've seen gemming failure or not, will tell you that handwelting, when done properly, is a more structurally sound method than gemming.

Again, this probably doesn't matter to most people, but it does to me.

This is my logic.

anyone else can do whatever they please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Oh - I do get that it's possible for a gem strip to fail. It does indeed happen from time to time.
Quantify 'common occurance' please.
biggrin.gif

Seriously, how is this a reasonable request???

If you would like to pay me, I'll set up shop at a cobbler and do a scientific survey of 5000 gemmed shoes and 5000 handwelted shoes taking down all data possible.

Maybe I can fit it in as part of my PhD.


But in actuality you're asking for quantitative data on what should be viewed as a qualitative feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

The reason a resole/recraft is more expensive than a simply resole is because they do more work than a simple resole.

Exactly, and I'd rather have my shoes made to a way in which they don't need a recraft when it should just be a re-soling. It's cheaper over the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

thanks for the detailed reply. I do appreciate it.
and I cannot say that I have any hands on experience to refute your findings.
My reluctance to believe that there is a widespread problem here is associated with the fact that there seems to be no widespread concern.

This is not very good logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

I presume that most buyers of goodyear welted shoes expect more than five years of wear without a recrafting, don't they? [/I][/B]

[/I][/B] I couldn't be the only one who would be upset to have to turn in a $1000 pair of shoes for recrafting after only five years, could I?[/I][/B]

The answer is they probably don't know.

They buy luxury shoes and they don't care about how much it costs to recraft. They probably don't even know the difference between a recraft and a resole.
post #382 of 416
Hendrix,

Here's a vid on half soles (including adding a rubber heal). My main problem with it is that it looks like shite when not done with the care shown in this video. (Which is the norm) It just emotionally seems like a criminal thing to do to a good pair of shoes. I frankly don't know if it's functionally inferior to a full resole or not.



Although I've done it on shoes of lower quality or those that are getting really shabby.

I still have an old pair of Ferragamos that have been half soled. Uppers still in good shape.

And I didn't mean to start a shit storm either. We're cool. I get what you are saying about the choices you've made for yourself. You may well be correct that in the long run you can save a few bucks by avoiding a recraft.

Just wish there was some way to quantify this debate.
Edited by Gdot - 9/11/12 at 4:08pm
post #383 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

And could only be done at the factory with the original last.

dream on, dream on
post #384 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirling View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The fact that you can even make the above statement demonstrates how little you actually know about general shoe construction let alone possessing the knowledge to credibly comment on the differences between specific makers.

It's actually outrageous that you keep posting your poorly informed opinions as some sort of facts.

It's quite clear to the majority of posters in this thread and all those who have some knowledge about shoe construction, that you are actually quite wet behind the ears.

It would be helpful if you could stop being so pig headed and living up to your avatar.

Ain't that the truth.

another great post from your side. much appreciated.
post #385 of 416
That half resole looked fine to me. Actually looked like quite a nice job.

I'm not sure if it is functionally inferior. Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

I would've liked to see a close channeled sole...
post #386 of 416
Yeah - it was a well done half soling.

It just creeps me out though - I'm not saying it's rational - btw.
post #387 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKDKid View Post

How about another bespoke shoemaker's opinion? From carreducker's blog:
- so what are they talking about here then?

From the same blog:
Quote:
One question I get asked a lot is this,

"Are your shoes Goodyear welted?"

Well, here's the thing. The Goodyear welt is an industrial process which was developed to replicate the hand welted shoe, which is what we do. So the answer is no, they are not Goodyear welted, they are hand welted. And there usually follows a long explanation of the differences, which I can boil down to ' our way is better, stronger and more durable'.

Esentially, the way we make shoes dates from the 16th Century. And when the Industrial Revolution came along, they invented machines which do the jobs a skilled artisan like me has taken years to perfect. So the shoes they make in Northampton for example, have a similar construction as our exquisite bespoke shoes (nominally), but there is a world of difference between the two.


Secondly, a hand welted bespoke shoe is made with a integral feather or holdfast (cut out of the insole), rather than being made from components. This imparts enormous strength and durability.
post #388 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKDKid View Post

How about another bespoke shoemaker's opinion? From carreducker's blog:
- so what are they talking about here then?

brownnosing at it's best. that's quite normal in their position, imo.
post #389 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post


dream on, dream on

 

Are you suggesting all sorts of gemming failure can be fixed without the original last?

post #390 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Are you suggesting all sorts of gemming failure can be fixed without the original last?

i suggest to buy good shoes, nothing else.
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