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Advantages of a $1000 Pair of Shoes - Page 25

post #361 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post


Look at that photo !!!A real photo proof of gemming failure and fairly substantial at that. only 5 YEARS OLD and 2/3rds of toe has FAILED

Where is the photograph? Or can only true believers see it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

This gemming failure is a common occurance in all RTW shoes including EG and JL even thouggh this is a rare photo]

Now. here is a conspiracy theorist hard at work. If bonding failure is such a common occurrence, why are the pictures rare?

I suppose it;s like the sightings of aliens the beloved Loch Ness monster. Many claims, but no evidenc!.

Those who fear bonding failure should avoid boarding an aeroplane.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0143749600000063
post #362 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Oh - I do get that it's possible for a gem strip to fail. It does indeed happen from time to time.
Quantify 'common occurance' please.
biggrin.gif

Well honestly I was targetting an audience beyond this thread, but regardless.

Common as in very very likely at least one shoe of every single pair sent in for resoling will need some sort of gemming repair. Certainly not possible but rather very likely. Yeah that common:nodding:

There is a reason why resole / recrafts are so much more expensive at the manufacturer than a local cobler (who has never seen gemming failure and will never check) and why removing the cork (for inspection) is accomplished as part of the routine. The manufacturers simply know to check because they know the failure points and how likely they are to occur. Plainly hidden secrets.
post #363 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Where is the photograph? Or can only true believers see it?


It's about half way down the linked article

Now. here is a conspiracy theorist hard at work. If bonding failure is such a common occurrence, why are the pictures rare?

Well even I have to wonder about the state of mind and why someone would take a picture of this. I have taken apart many many shoes over the decades merely out of curiosity but never once did I bother about pictures of any sort. Outside of this forum or an industry study I think showing pictures like this would get you committed or declared legally incompetent, no? certainly would get you setup for loads of ridicule if friends/family found out




I suppose it;s like the sightings of aliens the beloved Loch Ness monster. Many claims, but no evidenc!.
Those who fear bonding failure should avoid boarding an aeroplane.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0143749600000063
post #364 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Those who fear bonding failure should avoid boarding an aeroplane.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0143749600000063

sorry just saw this part but haven't read it yet.

Airplanes use bonding of the aluminum skin as part of a rivetted and bonded sheathing. The bonding is especially important in order to get an airtight vessel and does not act alone. Make no mistake that many major structural components of a plane are not bonded but very carefully welded/melded, friction welded etc. (welding aluminum properly is not an easy task and the risks of poor welds very high) and this is much costlier and time consuming but no choice. Also the skin of an airplane could be carefully welded but this would elevate costs substantially but certain military crafts use this appraoch.

Yes it is true that certain concepts now attempt to exclusively glue becasue its quicker and cheaper but we will only see how these perform in time
post #365 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


Where is the photograph? Or can only true believers see it?

Now. here is a conspiracy theorist hard at work. If bonding failure is such a common occurrence, why are the pictures rare?
I suppose it;s like the sightings of aliens the beloved Loch Ness monster. Many claims, but no evidenc!.
Those who fear bonding failure should avoid boarding an aeroplane.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0143749600000063

 

 

From the blog post.  According to DWFII its a common failure.  Maybe its heresy, but he sounds trustworthy (and so do you).

 

Now I am not an expert but it does make quite a bit of sense that this could happen.  As to the frequency of it happening, I do not know.  Maybe DWFII or B Nelson could comment. 

 

To your comment regarding the lack of pictures of it happening; I do not think many people take photo journals of their shoes being resoled and not enough cobbler cared.  They get paid for a new sole, not for fixing the internal structures.

post #366 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

Well honestly I was targetting an audience beyond this thread, but regardless.
Common as in very very likely at least one shoe of every single pair sent in for resoling will need some sort of gemming repair. Certainly not possible but rather very likely. Yeah that common:nodding:
There is a reason why resole / recrafts are so much more expensive at the manufacturer than a local cobler (who has never seen gemming failure and will never check) and why removing the cork (for inspection) is accomplished as part of the routine. The manufacturers simply know to check because they know the failure points and how likely they are to occur. Plainly hidden secrets.


So, it is your contention that the entire goodyear welting shoe industry, which consists of hundreds of thousands of craftsmen/workers over the years, is successfully guarding an 'plainly hidden secret' from the general shoe buying public? That's IMPOSSIBLE as there are surely large numbers of people who have passed through the employ of these companies over the years who would be more than happy to vent about the secrets of their former employer's business practices.

Face it. There ARE NO SECRETS in a trade as vast as the commercial manufacturing of shoes. It's simply not possible.

The reason a resole/recraft is more expensive than a simply resole is because they do more work than a simple resole.

You have mixed up logic and suspicion here. Please rethink.

I would appreciate it if you would clearly tell us more about your experience and credentials in this matter.
post #367 of 416
Let's do a poll........something that would draw on the vast user experience base of SF.

How would a guy know that his gemming had failed? So far I know of three possible 'symptoms' that would be noticable to the owner.

1.) A welt seam actually visibly came apart or came apart enough to affect the fit of the shoe.

2.) A shoe came back from resoling with a substantially different fit.

3.) A cobbler told him that his shoe couldn't be simply resoled and required a recraft.

Any other ways that the problem would present itself?
post #368 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

So, it is your contention that the entire goodyear welting shoe industry, which consists of hundreds of thousands of craftsmen/workers over the years, is successfully guarding an 'plainly hidden secret' from the general shoe buying public? That's IMPOSSIBLE as there are surely large numbers of people who have passed through the employ of these companies over the years who would be more than happy to vent about the secrets of their former employer's business practices.
Face it. There ARE NO SECRETS in a trade as vast as the commercial manufacturing of shoes. It's simply not possible.
The reason a resole/recraft is more expensive than a simply resole is because they do more work than a simple resole.
You have mixed up logic and suspicion here. Please rethink.
I would appreciate it if you would clearly tell us more about your experience and credentials in this matter.

OK well first the plainly hidden secret thing was a joke, there should have been a smiley there. So your right it's not a secret and outside of a few shoe nerds (like myself and present company) NOONE else cares. Really, no other shoe consumers give a crap. Complete apathy for better or worse.

No mix up of logic. Seriously you think the picture we're talking about is special or rare. If I took a picture of a rusted Lincoln car (ford) would you think it rare?

Experience : taken apart many several dozens of shoes/boots over many years for the pure hell of it.
Credentials: nothing related to shoes except above, regardless gemming FAILS often. Sorry but it just does
post #369 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Let's do a poll........something that would draw on the vast user experience base of SF.
How would a guy know that his gemming had failed? So far I know of three possible 'symptoms' that would be noticable to the owner.
1.) A welt seam actually visibly came apart or came apart enough to affect the fit of the shoe.
2.) A shoe came back from resoling with a substantially different fit.
3.) A cobbler told him that his shoe couldn't be simply resoled and required a recraft.
Any other ways that the problem would present itself?

Seriously Gdot, I don't mean to pick on you but none of these really (well maybe 2 a bit).

Casually the most visible to the owner would be a warped insole when looking inside the shoe at ball area. This can be subtle at first but will progress. Most owners would not even notice and probably find the shoe more comfortable as it looses its original tight factory shape and slowly progessively becomes more like a structureless slipper.

BTW a typical cobler will not tell you the shoe cannot be resoled. The cobler will take the shoe regardless and do his job-the job you payed him for and most likely glue on a new half sole, period. No stitching, no cork replacement, no gemmimg repair. Viola another satisfied customer. Good cobblers are as rare as good dry cleaners.
post #370 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Let's do a poll........something that would draw on the vast user experience base of SF.
How would a guy know that his gemming had failed? So far I know of three possible 'symptoms' that would be noticable to the owner.
1.) A welt seam actually visibly came apart or came apart enough to affect the fit of the shoe.
2.) A shoe came back from resoling with a substantially different fit.
3.) A cobbler told him that his shoe couldn't be simply resoled and required a recraft.
Any other ways that the problem would present itself?

 

Sometimes, a failed gemming could be seen inside the shoe if the sockliner doesn't cover the insole.

post #371 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

OK well first the plainly hidden secret thing was a joke, there should have been a smiley there. So your right it's not a secret and outside of a few shoe nerds (like myself and present company) NOONE else cares. Really, no other shoe consumers give a crap. Complete apathy for better or worse.
No mix up of logic. Seriously you think the picture we're talking about is special or rare. If I took a picture of a rusted Lincoln car (ford) would you think it rare?
Experience : taken apart many several dozens of shoes/boots over many years for the pure hell of it.
Credentials: nothing related to shoes except above, regardless gemming FAILS often. Sorry but it just does

thanks for the detailed reply. I do appreciate it.

and I cannot say that I have any hands on experience to refute your findings.

My reluctance to believe that there is a widespread problem here is associated with the fact that there seems to be no widespread concern. I presume that most buyers of goodyear welted shoes expect more than five years of wear without a recrafting, don't they? I couldn't be the only one who would be upset to have to turn in a $1000 pair of shoes for recrafting after only five years, could I?

It just doesn't make sense to me.
post #372 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

thanks for the detailed reply. I do appreciate it.
and I cannot say that I have any hands on experience to refute your findings.
My reluctance to believe that there is a widespread problem here is associated with the fact that there seems to be no widespread concern. I presume that most buyers of goodyear welted shoes expect more than five years of wear without a recrafting, don't they? I couldn't be the only one who would be upset to have to turn in a $1000 pair of shoes for recrafting after only five years, could I?
It just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm also interested in the answer to this question.
post #373 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

thanks for the detailed reply. I do appreciate it.
and I cannot say that I have any hands on experience to refute your findings.
My reluctance to believe that there is a widespread problem here is associated with the fact that there seems to be no widespread concern. I presume that most buyers of goodyear welted shoes expect more than five years of wear without a recrafting, don't they? I couldn't be the only one who would be upset to have to turn in a $1000 pair of shoes for recrafting after only five years, could I?
It just doesn't make sense to me.

The reason noone cares is because gemming failure might simply feel like a more comfortable shoe, the way a padded trainer will feel especially when old. Let's face it a tight new oxford might look and feel wonderful to us but alot of guys consider this a necessary evil. So when the shoe becomes wider as the gemming seperates it will become looser and thus more comfortable to many. BTW i myself still wear shes with failed gemming when doing casual work around the house etc.

Additionnally although completely anecdotal but looking around at some of my collegues footware today and I see mostly ridiculously loose fitting blooby shoes. A proper goodyear shoe with failed gemming would still look far better than these I assure you.
post #374 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

Seriously Gdot, I don't mean to pick on you but none of these really (well maybe 2 a bit).

Casually the most visible to the owner would be a warped insole when looking inside the shoe at ball area. This can be subtle at first but will progress. Most owners would not even notice and probably find the shoe more comfortable as it looses its original tight factory shape and slowly progessively becomes more like a structureless slipper.
BTW a typical cobler will not tell you the shoe cannot be resoled. The cobler will take the shoe regardless and do his job-the job you payed him for and most likely glue on a new half sole, period. No stitching, no cork replacement, no gemmimg repair. Viola another satisfied customer. Good cobblers are as rare as good dry cleaners.

And I don't mean to be snarky. But if the wearer isn't able to tell the difference, then why does it matter?

Are we presumed to be unable to tell if a shoe is no longer wearable? This seems rather improbable.

And by the way - a half sole would not be acceptable to me or to most of the wearers of better quality RTW shoes - I believe most folks on here would tell the cobbler to take his half sole and shove it up his.......A#$. Give us a little credit. We can tell if we paid for a full resole including a new heel and didn't get it.
post #375 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

The reason noone cares is because gemming failure might simply feel like a more comfortable shoe, the way a padded trainer will feel especially when old. Let's face it a tight new oxford might look and feel wonderful to us but alot of guys consider this a necessary evil. So when the shoe becomes wider as the gemming seperates it will become looser and thus more comfortable to many. BTW i myself still wear shes with failed gemming when doing casual work around the house etc.
Additionnally although completely anecdotal but looking around at some of my collegues footware today and I see mostly ridiculously loose fitting blooby shoes. A proper goodyear shoe with failed gemming would still look far better than these I assure you.

Ok - I don't disagree that most guys are slobs.

But SF is presumably a more sophisticated group, no?
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