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Advantages of a $1000 Pair of Shoes - Page 24

post #346 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post

as long as people neglect to learn it's a big waste of time to teach them, imo.

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.
post #347 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

The one point we will clearly continue to disagree on is that I still place a 'quality' value on additional craftsmenship/care/materials even if related only to asthetics. And that's fine with me if we have different definitions

That's fine by me too, but if you're ok with that why are you bringing up the points made below?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

I think though that you would find that on many counts, excluding welting method, that a $1000 RTW Northampton shoe is indeed made with considerably higher quality materials and considerably more craftsmenship than a $500 pair. Everything from how the upper is created (hand brougued or machine, hand skivving various seams, creation of linings and edgings, there just are literally dozens of little 'upgrades' that do indeed occur between the two price points. And, in fact, the manufacture of a 'handgrade' shoe simply requires more handwork and less machine work. Some of this results in more comfort, and more likely longer life in the handgrade shoe. For that matter even all gemmed inseams are not necessarily equal. It is pretty easy for me to comprehend that makers such as G&G and EG use the best materials and best quality control available and probably even a very high quality adhesive.

I'm not aware of any RTW shoe that hand brogues an upper. I haven't seen any evidence for any of these little 'upgrades'. If you want to 'upgrade' a shoe's quality, wouldn't you do it by addressing the main components of construction as listed in my previous post?

You can see videos of the making process. EG. JL. Whoever. I haven't seen any of these little "upgrades" of which you speak.

Perhaps they exist. I don't know. I'm not a shoemaker.

But if they exist, perhaps you could show me the difference between, say, a JL and a Carmina RTW shoe? If anything I can only conclude that the Carminas are slightly better made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

I do appreciate your desire for fiscal responsibility, as I was once young and started out with nothing, I know what it means to watch the pennys carefully. It does seem to me that Vass shoes represent a very sound investment in terms of durability and cost vs. quality.
Are you thinking of a Mermin Linea Maestro anytime soon? I'm skeptical that the rest of the shoe is up to speed with the inseam on them - but am open to hearing the evaluation of more 'discerning' buyers such as yourself.
By the way, I corresponded with Feit, they confirmed that the shoes are entirely handmade in China. This is intriquing, as it seems that low labor costs could allow them to devote a good deal of time to the construction while still keeping the construction quality up there. And the location of manufacture makes shipping to NZ competitive. Of course, can't imagine myself wearing them........biggrin.gif

I don't intend to buy Meermin or Feit. I've seen the cost of Common Projects (my sneaker of choice) skyrocket over the years. Feit seem to be better made and if they come out with a style similar to the Achilles when my pair craps out I'll definitely look into them.

My last 2 pairs of shoes were made for me by an Italian shoemaker I'd been in contact with over the internet. I will likely continue to buy from him because I've been happy with the fit of the shoes, the construction methods, the value for money, and the fact that I've developed a relationship with someone who I believe I can trust to make the shoes to good standards. I also like the regional construction variations that this maker offers me. I've also had good success with Vass.

Since I'm already content with this maker, I don't feel the need to try other makers - even if they might represent exceptional value - because it's a risk of disappointment in terms of fit and quality. And I'm a loyal customer because I feel like he did well by me.

I do think Vass represents exceptional value for money, and from what I've seen on the internet, so does Meermin LM.
post #348 of 415
I'll only answer your question as to why I brought up so many points.

I only wish for you to consider that the final judgement of quality is possibly far more nuanced than you currently consider. That's all.

In any case, it certainly seems to me that you have done your homework related to your own needs and concerns. Particularly in regards to developing a relationship with a specific maker. Perhaps at some point we can share a PM or two about this maker if you would be so kind.

Is it less expensive to have a hand sewn shoe resoled than it is to have a goodyear welted shoe resoled? I honeatly do not know.
post #349 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Perhaps at some point we can share a PM or two about this maker if you would be so kind.

Sure!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Is it less expensive to have a hand sewn shoe resoled than it is to have a goodyear welted shoe resoled? I honeatly do not know.

It's not the resoling, it's that, from what I understand, if the gemming slips significantly, the whole shoe would have to be re-lasted and re-welted. Which is far more expensive, and also means you lose the comfort of the worn-in footbed.
post #350 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post


Sure!
It's not the resoling, it's that, from what I understand, if the gemming slips significantly, the whole shoe would have to be re-lasted and re-welted. Which is far more expensive, and also means you lose the comfort of the worn-in footbed.

 

And could only be done at the factory with the original last.

post #351 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

that a $1000 RTW Northampton shoe is indeed made with considerably higher quality materials p than a $500 pair. .biggrin.gif

really?

Since considerably higher quality is 100% subjective, lets get down to it.

comparing say a C&J handgrade (about $550ish) to the $1,000 ones (take your pick).

Both have oakbark soles.
both have very fine leather. If you suggest the 1000 ones are considerably higher quality, prove it. What makes it higher quality? What attributes are you using to make that hypothesis?

The difference between corrected grade aldo and say Allen Edmonds is considerable. Between C&J HG and say EG...well, not considerable in any way I've noticed.
post #352 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post


I think though that you would find that on many counts, excluding welting method, that a $1000 RTW Northampton shoe is indeed made with considerably higher quality materials and considerably more craftsmenship than a $500 pair. Everything from how the upper is created (hand brougued or machine, hand skivving various seams, creation of linings and edgings, there just are literally dozens of little 'upgrades' that do indeed occur between the two price points. And, in fact, the manufacture of a 'handgrade' shoe simply requires more handwork and less machine work. Some of this results in more comfort, and more likely longer life in the handgrade shoe. For that matter even all gemmed inseams are not necessarily equal. It is pretty easy for me to comprehend that makers such as G&G and EG use the best materials and best quality control available and probably even a very high quality adhesive. 

 

The fact that you can even make the above statement demonstrates how little you actually know about general shoe construction let alone possessing the knowledge to credibly comment on the differences between specific makers.

 

It's actually outrageous that you keep posting your poorly informed opinions as some sort of facts.

 

It's quite clear to the majority of posters in this thread and all those who have some knowledge about shoe construction, that you are actually quite wet behind the ears.

 

It would be helpful if you could stop being so pig headed and living up to your avatar.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post

as long as people neglect to learn it's a big waste of time to teach them, imo.

 

Ain't that the truth.

post #353 of 415

This thread is almost the SF equivalent of 50 Shades of Grey, with Gdot as the willing masochist.

post #354 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadcammer View Post

really?
Since considerably higher quality is 100% subjective, lets get down to it.
comparing say a C&J handgrade (about $550ish) to the $1,000 ones (take your pick).
Both have oakbark soles.
both have very fine leather. If you suggest the 1000 ones are considerably higher quality, prove it. What makes it higher quality? What attributes are you using to make that hypothesis?
The difference between corrected grade aldo and say Allen Edmonds is considerable. Between C&J HG and say EG...well, not considerable in any way I've noticed.

You do make a good point that the difference between a C&J handgrade and G&G or EG is getting pretty narrow.

However C&J handgrades are more like $600+ and benchgrades more like $500. So my personal comparison is between benchgrade and G&G or EG. And there are considerable differences between the two - both in terms of materials, sole stitch not channeld and closed on benchgrades, linings, etc. (quality) as well as finishing in terms of stitching, linings, etc, (some say this is design not quality - but I say workmanship is workmanship).

Having held and tried on C&J handgrades and owned G&Gs I can actually only say that the one thing that appears to be of substantiall higher qualityon the G&G is the leathers used. I was not at all impressed with the hand, or fullness of the C&J handgrade leather. The rest of the differences are in fine tuning/design/etc. etc. (craftsmenship that only results in aesthetic differences or increased fineness of craftsmenship.) I will certainly give you that.

And I'm also not saying that one doesn't pay a premium for G&G - that premium is surely partly simply a factor of paying extra for the look you want. I'm good with that. I also note that my particular G&Gs have upgraded materials (pin grain) upgraded details (hand sticthed toe details) etc. etc. My wholecuts which have no specific upgrades actually cost right at $800 from Edwards of Manchester - although they have subsequently raised the prices.

All of this being said, I don't believe I actually know how much difference there is in hand work between most benchgrade and handgrade shoes. Although I believe there is more difference than may meet the eye. I believe one is paying a certain premium for the fact that more handwork is provided. Even if this results in no additional 'quality' in the end result. This seems to be difficult to determine however. I've never seen any outright statements as to the exact differences in methods from the makers. Have you?
post #355 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey View Post

This thread is almost the SF equivalent of 50 Shades of Grey, with Gdot as the willing masochist.

I'm having fun.
post #356 of 415
Quote:
The fact that you can even make the above statement demonstrates how little you actually know about general shoe construction let alone possessing the knowledge to credibly comment on the differences between specific makers.

It's actually outrageous that you keep posting your poorly informed opinions as some sort of facts.

It's quite clear to the majority of posters in this thread and all those who have some knowledge about shoe construction, that you are actually quite wet behind the ears.

It would be helpful if you could stop being so pig headed and living up to your avatar.



Ain't that the truth.

Either state FACTS, cite your knowledge, in detail, or BUZZ OFF.

Your snarky, condescending, and accusatory posts which are completely devoid of actual content are exactly what I am railing against here.

You know perfectly well that a lot more time, attention, and craftsmenship goes into a pair of G&Gs or EGs than into a benchgrade shoe.

To my knowledge, the only thing you've contributed in detail so far to this thread is that all of these northhampton made RTW shoes have synthetic materials inside of them. I can live with that? What else is there for you to hate other than the 'great gemming debate'?
post #357 of 415

Does anyone know of any RTW shoe maker that does not use Goodyear-welted shoes, i.e. those that have no glue attaching the welt to the insole?

post #358 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Goodyear welted shoes rely on a canvas strip glued to the insole that the upper and welt are stitched to. The welt enables the sole to be easily replaced without taking apart with whole shoe and replacing the insole. However, if the glued canvas comes loose, the whole shoe is attached to it so it will need to be glued back down. If too much has come loose (and generally some will have come loose), the whole shoe will need to be relasted and the insole will have to be replaced, at which point you may as well just have a whole new shoe made (not to mention the fact that it's very difficult to relaste a pair of shoes that have already been cut. This Permanent Style write up on a 5 y/o pair of EGs is my source here. Parts 2 and 3..

Amen x 1000 hendrix!!!

Look at that photo !!!A real photo proof of gemming failure and fairly substantial at that. only 5 YEARS OLD and 2/3rds of toe has FAILED Let the gemming lovers here choke on that:hide:

This gemming failure is a common occurance in all RTW shoes including EG and JL even thouggh this is a rare photo. Why, because glue/cement joint is narrow.

just to make sure everyone got this; A 5 YEAR OLD REVERRED (WANKED OVER) EDWARD GREEN SHOE HAS SIGNIFICANT FAILURE OF A CRITICAL CONSTRUCTION DETAIL
post #359 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by msulinski View Post

Does anyone know of any RTW shoe maker that does not use Goodyear-welted shoes, i.e. those that have no glue attaching the welt to the insole?

Vass and now Meermin Linea Maestro are the two hand sewn darlings of SF now.

Vass is impeccible in their quality and craftsmenship and I know of no reason to question their quality. Meermin is just starting out, working towards a lower price point, and has had some quality control issues. And the reviews of the materials (leather quality) have been mixed.

Of course most italian RTW shoes are blake or blake rapid construction - these are not gemmed either. Blake has it's draw backs in terms of moisture protection and access to a cobbler who can resole them- but Blake rapid has neither of these problems.
post #360 of 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

Amen x 1000 hendrix!!!
Look at that photo !!!A real photo proof of gemming failure and fairly substantial at that. only 5 YEARS OLD and 2/3rds of toe has FAILED Let the gemming lovers here choke on that:hide:
This gemming failure is a common occurance in all RTW shoes including EG and JL even thouggh this is a rare photo. Why, because glue/cement joint is narrow.
just to make sure everyone got this; A 5 YEAR OLD REVERRED (WANKED OVER) EDWARD GREEN SHOE HAS SIGNIFICANT FAILURE OF A CRITICAL CONSTRUCTION DETAIL

Oh - I do get that it's possible for a gem strip to fail. It does indeed happen from time to time.

Quantify 'common occurance' please.

biggrin.gif
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