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Why does the MC tailored aesthetic fetishise the idea of insouciant dressing? - Page 2

post #16 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Yes, this is true. Though, for such people, I think it is more specifically a result of a psychology informed by Judeo-Christian values, not so much anything akin to religion.
We are supposed to hate the existence of class and hate even more any aspirations to class. This may have had origins specifically relating to politically-defined classes in a formal hierarchy, and served a powerful purpose in overturning that sort of over-rigid society, but the participants in that movement and its inheritors (us) have realized just how wonderfully sedating it is to apply similar thinking to anything that makes us feel worse or weak. But underneath it all, we know. We tell ourselves all day: we don't care if we aren't as smart, as pretty, as strong, as wealthy, etc., as others, and we go through the Judeo-Christian gymnastics of rationalizing that such things are actually bad anyway, but we still have that pit in our stomach when we go to sleep. We know, on some level, the only reason we have to rationalize away all the inferiority as a new species of superiority is because we are conscious of the inferiority to begin with.

Wooah there Slavoj! Don't put your ideology in my mouth, can't follow you at all.
post #17 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Think about the act of tying a tie. Before I started wearing ties regularly, and before SF, whenever I wore a tie I wanted to get it just perfect. It bugged me when it wasn't. This was one of my few opportunities to wear a tie, and so I wanted to be sure and get it right. Now, I wear a tie 3 or 4 times a week. It doesn't take as much effort to get a decent knot, and if it's not absolutely perfect, oh well, I'll be wearing a tie tomorrow too, it's not the end of the world to have it a little bit off one day.
Now, could somebody try very hard to imitate one of my "slightly off" knots that I produce sometimes these days? Sure. I guess it would look the same. I guess it manufactures sprezz. But the odds are very high that they would fuck something else up (not that I don't, but just for the sake of argument), and end up revealing the whole thing to be a complete farce. Then you end up with abominations like this (sorry for posting this twice in two days, but I think it's relevant):
http://ivorytowerstyle.tumblr.com/post/18517016167/howtotalktogirlsatparties-nick-mcclish

Or, what you thought was "perfect" before was simply fallacious and you learned better what "perfect" really means. In other words, maybe you rose from your ignorance and simply improved at the task you were attempting to accomplish.
post #18 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

Personally, I don't care a whit about "insouciance," but I do want to look comfortable in my clothes, and for others to feel comfortable around me.

+1000, well put. And I don't think coat and tie, or a silk square, prohibits that.
post #19 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Or, what you thought was "perfect" before was simply fallacious and you learned better what "perfect" really means. In other words, maybe you rose from your ignorance and simply improved at the task you were attempting to accomplish.

Independent of whether that's true or false....I honestly don't remember enough about how I used to tie ties to say....the point is that I used to spend a lot more time getting my tie knot to whatever I considered the ideal state than I do now.
post #20 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Independent of whether that's true or false....I honestly don't remember enough about how I used to tie ties to say....the point is that I used to spend a lot more time getting my tie knot to whatever I considered the ideal state than I do now.

Sure, but my point is that doesn't necessarily mean you tie it more "natural" now.
post #21 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdfast View Post


Neatly phrased and accurate.

I want to think more about this before replying fully, but for now I'll state that this kind of widespread dissonant belief system grates on me just a little. Perhaps its my job talking, but when I see two contradictory belief structures being held simultaneously, I want to pull at the thread linking them together, to see why they've become woven together and to try to find a "cleaner" system underneath. At the least, I want to make dissonance explicit. That's part of why I started this thread, I suppose, though I wasn't totally conscious of that underlying motivation at the time.

While I understand where you're going (you're a psychiatrist or a psychanalyst, right?) I am not sure we have an actuall dissonance. In the end I think the belief that 1) a meritocracy is possible and even more so that 2) we have a meritocracy is so widely disbelieved that it is almost pointless to attribute it to people at large, although some individuals might pretend to hold these as true.
post #22 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Sure, but my point is that doesn't necessarily mean you tie it more "natural" now.

Fair enough, I don't know what it means to tie a tie "naturally", as ties are surely not part of what nature intended. But I feel more comfortable and relaxed wearing a tie now than I did before.
post #23 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Fair enough, I don't know what it means to tie a tie "naturally", as ties are surely not part of what nature intended. But I feel more comfortable and relaxed wearing a tie now than I did before.

This is what I mean about loaded words. I am using "natural" to mean the same as "comfortable" or "relaxed."
post #24 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Fair enough, I don't know what it means to tie a tie "naturally", as ties are surely not part of what nature intended. But I feel more comfortable and relaxed wearing a tie now than I did before.

Woohoo teleology!!

Nature didn't intend shit and EVERYTHING is natural, this is probably the only point where Mafoo and I agree (or do we? maybe he's a natural rights kinda guy.).
post #25 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

Woohoo teleology!!
Nature didn't intend shit and EVERYTHING is natural, this is probably the only point where Mafoo and I agree (or do we? maybe he's a natural rights kinda guy.).

Oh good god. Obviously not what I meant. Once you try to pin down the meaning of the word it has very little meaning in any context.
post #26 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Oh good god. Obviously not what I meant. Once you try to pin down the meaning of the word it has very little meaning in any context.

That says something about how we use it.
post #27 of 106
Also so far as I can tell I never used the word "natural" in any of my posts. foo.gif introduced it.
post #28 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdfast View Post

If we are indeed all just "dressing up", shouldn't we be honest about that rather than trying to ape a different look? Is there not something "cleaner" about simply acknowledging that we enjoy dressing up?
...
The one exception I can think of the above is being an employee in a city, profession & firm where a traditional tailored aesthetic still rules the roost. And not just in the fact that there's a suit & tie dress code, but tjat it's an institution with sufficient standards and cultural signficance that a high level of absolutely correct dress is expected.

I totally acknowledge that I'm "just dressing up". I'm not in a suit-wearing profession or social circle, but I do live in a city. Sometimes I'll wear a suit and tie just for its perceived effect on observers. i.e. being the contrarian 'suit' in a group of 'hipsters'. Or even just for personal enjoyment. And though I understand the conventions of good taste (graceful, harmonious and understated), that's precisely why I will sometmes I like to wear an exploding pocket square. I realize this way of dressing is much different that someone who dresses in the tailored tradition all the time. I feel a little like an imposter in this world, but I still enjoy knowing the arcane rules and using (or igonring them) to my own personal effect.
post #29 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Oh good god. Obviously not what I meant. Once you try to pin down the meaning of the word it has very little meaning in any context.

It is one of the most ideologically charged words you can think of, using it is entering a minefield.
post #30 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

It is one of the most ideologically charged words you can think of, using it is entering a minefield.

I think in this context using it is clearly a joke, and this particular phrasing is often used on internet fora in a joking fashion, as in, "closing your collar with a collar pin as God/nature intended". But whatever, I think we agree on the actual issue of the matter...
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