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MC General Chat - Page 69

post #1021 of 1791
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

This is a joke, right?

I dunno. I rarely see ads on websites (yay for adblock!), so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
post #1022 of 1791
Something I think I have claimed now in a couple of threads with nobody seeming to disagree with me, but now I want to suggest here, apropos of nothing, in the hopes of encouraging discussion:

True primary or secondary colors are never tasteful. By "true", I mean a color that is the definition of what that color is supposed to be. And by primary I mean red, blue, yellow, and secondary the combinations thereof: purple, orange, and green, although true secondary colors are not so bad as true primary colors. True blue has kind of had a moment with "blogger blue" but it's not classic menswear in my view. Manton has led the charge against red ties. Donald Trump unintentionally makes a strong argument against yellow ties. I know Frank Sinatra loved to wear orange pocket squares with his tuxedo, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks terrible.

In sum: leave these "true colors" to athletic uniforms and superhero costumes.
post #1023 of 1791
^

I think you're right but I don't know why it would be the case. These colors always remind me of LEGO and children's toys.


Edited by mymil - 2/6/13 at 4:30pm
post #1024 of 1791
I think they just come off as unsophisticated and unimaginative, while still loud. They are to menswear what Carlos Mencia is to comedy.
post #1025 of 1791
Thread Starter 






post #1026 of 1791
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

Something I think I have claimed now in a couple of threads with nobody seeming to disagree with me, but now I want to suggest here, apropos of nothing, in the hopes of encouraging discussion:

True primary or secondary colors are never tasteful. By "true", I mean a color that is the definition of what that color is supposed to be. And by primary I mean red, blue, yellow, and secondary the combinations thereof: purple, orange, and green, although true secondary colors are not so bad as true primary colors. True blue has kind of had a moment with "blogger blue" but it's not classic menswear in my view. Manton has led the charge against red ties. Donald Trump unintentionally makes a strong argument against yellow ties. I know Frank Sinatra loved to wear orange pocket squares with his tuxedo, but that doesn't change the fact that it looks terrible.

In sum: leave these "true colors" to athletic uniforms and superhero costumes.


I'm one of the minority who finds the word tasteful to be relatively inaccurate terminology when it comes to clothes, as it depends on the specific audience whose tastes you're interested in. But if you mean "always acceptable within a traditional spectrum of tailored menswear as it is viewed today" (not as punchy, admittedly), then I think you're generally correct (apart from possibly when you're beside the seaside, which kind of reinforces the importance of situational expectations when thinking about this sort of thing). Anyway, I would suggest that the main reason is simply because culturally, primary colours are associated with childhood (and, as you say, sports or other uniforms), and it's been so for some time (about a century or so). As such, you're supposed to move past such things and into more subdued & complex territory as you get older and become a man. The whole tired set of concepts of stealth wealth, restrained elegance, the importance of nuanced detail/texture rather than bold strokes, etc, etc are linked into this to create the amalgam of "tasteful". So yes, almost by definition, primary colours generally aren't tasteful.

 

You only need to go back a little over a century, though, to find primary colours being considered very tasteful indeed. Many military costumes used primary colours, initially out of a need to be visible in the smoke of the battlefield, but subsequently becoming very chic items to wear around town. And if you go back further still, there are some remarkable royal outfits (by definition, considered tasteful, or someone lost their head) in primary colours. So these things are fundamentally mutable. But for now, yes, I'd agree with your position regarding current tastes. Unless deployed in small amounts, and carefully.

 

How you use that information is up to you, however.

post #1027 of 1791
Great photos, d - these are great for discussion.

My own opinions:

1. This tie is pretty much dead red. The suit is fantastic, but even Vox doesn't make this tie look great. It's too typical politician.

2. woe is a very stylish dude, but let's try to separate the fit from the man a bit. The tie is blogger blue. It looks like it might be a knit or have some kind of texture, which would help. If it's just silk repp, then I think it's an unmitigated fail. If it's textured, then it looks alright, but it's very #menswear. In any case, I don't think it's the best choice.

3. The suggestion is that the tie is true orange? This is my favorite fit of the ones posted. But I don't think the tie is exactly true orange. It has a little more red in it than that, which looks great with the reddish-brown jacket.

4. Looks like Phat Guido, who is one of the most stylish dudes on the internet and one of the guys whose pictures got me really interested in style. But this is I think the least successful fit I've seen from him. The pants don't seem to fit well, and the color is kind of too muddy for the rest of the fit. Jacket looks a bit tight and buttoning point is pretty high. The shoes (Dovers? in any case they look great) help to blend the tie in, but I still don't think it works particularly well. Anyway, the tie isn't my least favorite thing about this fit, but I don't think it's helping matters.

5. I'd call that tie a little darker and inkier than true blue. It's still too formal for that SC IMHO.

6. Great example of what I'm talking about. Yellow tie is hideous IMHO.

7. An unsophisticated-looking green tie. Green and grey are so effing cash money together that it's hard to make it look terrible, but there are other greens that would be better than this one.
post #1028 of 1791
HF -
I agree with your points, I'm basically using "tasteful" to mean "tasteful by the current standards of classic menswear". Maybe I should instead keep using "unsophisticated", which is I think more clearly something that depends on cultural language and is not fundamental or immutable. Red, blue, and yellow ties, for instance, to me always look like somebody who just got their first job or first big interview and went to the department store thinking, OK, I need ties...I guess I'll get a red one, a blue one, and a yellow one. Now I've got all the colors. Done.
post #1029 of 1791
Thread Starter 
Though not things I would wear, and arguably not even things that are optimal for those outfits, I would find it hard to call those in poor taste. (I admit the yellow tie might come close, but I still think Nii looks good)
post #1030 of 1791
Interesting discussion. Unbel, I think I know what you mean about primary and secondary colored ties, but I'm pretty sure you're just overgeneralizing. They're not good basic ties, they probably shouldn't be worn very often for most men who want to look inconspicuous or normal or just within general good taste boundaries... but to say that they're unsophisticated or imaginative isn't right. Thanks to DW for all the photos.

About your comments on PG's orange tie:

Is "fit" short for "outfit?" e.g. "This fit is one of his worst fits?" If you mean that the cut and measure of the suit fit him poorly, then I disagree. Sorry, this misuse of the word distracts me, but perhaps it's menswear slang that I should get used to.
post #1031 of 1791
They're not offensive. I don't know where "poor taste" ends and "unoffensive" begins. Let's just go back to "unsophisticated". Vox's cord outfit is the only one that could be described as "sophisticated", at least by me.
post #1032 of 1791
Yea "fit" is short for "outfit", but I also think that these aren't the things in PG's closet that fit him best. The pants are definitely not bespoke - you can see the droopiness and uncleanliness of the fit around the crotchal area. On the buttoned pic of the jacket, lapels seem to be bowing a bit and you can see some horizontal folds near the button, which indicates that the jacket is too tight. Also I think the buttoning point is a bit high.
post #1033 of 1791
Thread Starter 
The fit of these clothes is a separate matter from the use of colors though.

In any case, yes I would not call these sophisticated looks, but sophistication is not always the singular goal, is it? One can think of many American trad ensembles as examples. Again, while not something I would wear, it would be difficult for me to say that these are either not-classic or in poor taste.

Actually, dopey's recent thread on A. Lucas comes to mind.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/334602/the-best-of-the-best/0_20

The use of a yellow tie and orange ribbon belt here doesn't give the impression of sophistication, but it's its own classic style nonetheless. And well executed at that.

http://thetrad.blogspot.com/2010/05/avery-lucas-southerner-in-nyc.html
post #1034 of 1791
Thread Starter 
Actually, Nick Foulkes has been pictured many times wearing primarily colors, and it often gives - IMO - an impression of sophistication (albeit also a very dandy European one). This could also be because I think Nick is fairly erudite, however. Perhaps if I knew nothing about him, I wouldn't have this idea.
post #1035 of 1791
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

HF -
I agree with your points, I'm basically using "tasteful" to mean "tasteful by the current standards of classic menswear". Maybe I should instead keep using "unsophisticated", which is I think more clearly something that depends on cultural language and is not fundamental or immutable.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makoto Chan View Post

Interesting discussion. Unbel, I think I know what you mean about primary and secondary colored ties, but I'm pretty sure you're just overgeneralizing. They're not good basic ties, they probably shouldn't be worn very often for most men who want to look inconspicuous or normal or just within general good taste boundaries... but to say that they're unsophisticated or imaginative isn't right. Thanks to DW for all the photos.

 

(forgive my bolding & cropping your posts to draw out the areas I wanted to highlight)

 

I think Makoto Chan is closer to the mark with his use of the word inconspicuous. What SF has condensed into a concept of "good taste" is more about "discretion" (or, to use that horrible term, "stealth wealth"). Or even more specifically, a discreet display of class signifers as perceived by a modern reinterpretation of an archetype of the menswear of a 20-60s elite. If I'm brutally honest, I actually find this fetishisation fairly distasteful, but can accept why it exists, and also that most aspirants to it aren't actively conscious of all of the sociocultural baggage they're adopting alongside it and would not actively choose to associate with a fair chunk of it (some would, I'm sure). Or if they do think about the cultural associations, feel that they can separate the aesthetic itself from its cultural origins. Personally, I'm not convinced that's possible, but I get that others feel it's possible, so whatever...

 

... naturally, since I like a tailored aesthetic, I'm not exempt from the above, though I do like to (deceive myself that I) try to be a bit aware of the implications of it all.

 

(sorry for the ramble, it's getting late & I should go to bed... laugh.gif )

 

Coming back to primary colours, as they're associated with children, sports, workers' uniforms (yeah, I'm playing that card), and tribal garb (yeah, that card too), they're not culturally part of accepted good taste. Frankly, I think that's a sucky way to decide what colours one likes wearing, but it has some practical value in the real world, as most of us have to play the conventional game most of the time, in order to get along.


Edited by Holdfast - 2/6/13 at 5:02pm
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