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whnay.'s good taste thread - Page 353

post #5281 of 14147
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

Please back this up. I'm happy to entertain evidence.

In the meantime, here's an example from way back in the day of Apparel Arts, courtesy of Will:

Does that look comparable to the glen plaid worn by the original poster? I don't think so. Not even close. It has a very bold overcheck. In fact, I have a hard time understanding why Will calls it a glen check to begin with. Unless the original Apparel Arts commentary says to the contrary, it could be any random checked pattern. I would never have guessed it a glen plaid.

Take a look at the glen plaid flannels issued by Harrisons, Minnis, and Fox. I consider those very archetypical. The base plaid tends to be of medium size, but of muted contrast. The overcheck, if any, tends to be pin-stripe thin. The glen plaid sold at your typical department store tends to be even more subtle. The original poster's glen plaid looks like a very regular sort of glen plaid.
post #5282 of 14147
Aravenel's coat is definitely a suiting, quite unlike the AA illustration.
post #5283 of 14147

Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

<to in stitches>


I don't think you are actively trying to undermine the thread. However, I've noticed that you tend to dismiss whatever I say on the vague basis of having your own personal opinion. Please understand why that is destructive to his thread and, effectively, trolling. The whole point was to make this thread different from WAYWRN; it is supposed to embrace the spirit of objectivity. I don't want people to just do as I say, but as with anyone, when I am asked for input or advice, I need to believe it was earnestly requested. Just appreciate that in this thread, that's all.


stitchy, it might also help if you understand that what he's is trying to do with this thread, is - coincidentally, I'm quite sure; he doesn't need my advice - the precise prescription I outlined much earlier in the day in the regular WAYWRN thread, with which you agreed. Only in that case, it was the reverse scenario and we were talking about why complaint/criticism wasn't going to work in the environment of that thread, because it serves a different social purpose.


what I wrote earlier (Click to show)



I do think there's a lot to be said for the sentiment that the thread is whatever people make it. If you want a certain kind of outfit (whether in terms of style or quality, really), the only way it will happen is if people who dress that way choose to post here. There's no cover charge or admittance policy at the door. We each just post what we like wearing, and the aggregate chips then fall where they may. As you know from the duration of time you've read the board, critique & complaining has historically had little effect (or, at most a very temporary one); shouting someone down on the internet rarely works because there's no fundamental incentive to listen. Those who want advice, will change. Those who don't, won't. Which camp they fall into is kind of irrelevant to whether they post photos in the thread or not. What alters the balance of photos in the thread at any given time is simply who chooses to post and how consistently they do so, as most people aren't really looking for fundamental reconstruction of their wardrobe, regardless of whether others feel it's needed. This thread ends up more about habit and general value of chatting within/around a familiar context (in this case clothes).


Sociologically, it's more actually analogous to how a group of colleagues who go out for a drink after work aren't really interested in what they're going to  drink, so much as the opportunity to shoot the breeze and are using the drink as the context for that chat. Some the other WAYWRN threads on the board are ostensibly more targeted/specific in their aims... but it's noticeable that even those tend to rapidly evolve from that specific theme to a more general chat loosely centred around that original topic. Such is the way of the internet, I rather think. More focused/directed discourse only happens with very extensive & active moderation, which only works at the expense of narrowing down the group of participants (& audience) to those with a much more serious interest in the topic.




Now, flip that around, and you can see exactly why I think he's right that he (and the others judging the thread) need to be robustly didactic in their opinions here. We already have the regular thread for more casual type exchanging of views of outfits where any critique is couched within a more social chatty context and therefore largely blunted because that thread serves a different social function. This thread needs to be something different, or there really isn't any point to its separate existence. It actually doesn't matter what their opinions are, whether you or I agree with them, or even if they agree within themselves (in fact, the last outcome is best of all). It doesn't even matter whether you'd want to follow them in your own clothing choices. What is important, is that this thread will only have life if there is that overly robust expression within it


A softer but also enjoyable variant of this strong op-ed approach to the discussion was vox's old weekly digest. Were you around for those; I can't remember when they stopped. They were more of an iron fist in a velvet glove approach, but I suspect (I never actually asked) that the intent - or perhaps, just desired outcome -  was essentially the same. Think of it that way, and you can get an idea of why mafoofan is being so harsh. Mind you, I don't think he should single you out in particular. No, I think he should be equally direct with everyone who posts in this thread. Almost every other thread takes a more laid-back, inclusive approach (which, admittedly, I personally prefer in terms of my own interactions). I think there's more than enough room for a couple of differently toned threads on the board. At the very least, it will make for entertaining reading. And you never know, reading between the lines, you will probably find one or two real gems that influence your own choices, even if you still end up junking a lot of the rest.


(for example, the last thing I read on SF that really made me think about what I wear was the discussion on what makes a pocket square pattern work. I think Manton posted that one. Not sure. Anyway, they said that the most versatile patterned squares tend to be the ones that don't have patterns that could also potentially work as ties. That's a really useful mental shortcut, reducing how much thought needs to go into  scale co-ordination when choosing a square, and caused me to think about my own selections. It doesn't mean I junked all my old squares, but I did get a few new ones, and I also deploy some of the older ones much more cautiously.)


I was going to PM you the above, but actually I think it may be useful to post it out here to help others grasp why the ruthlessness is a good thing. It's not actually gratuitous, despite appearances. Naturally, this post itself may disappear (or be spoiler-coded to avoid distracting from the thread) if the thread's internal mods feel it's inappropriate! No worries if they feel that way.

post #5284 of 14147
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

Isnt that a pretty large scale? I don't think anyone disagrees that a large POW is fine for an odd jacket.
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I don't care if someone where's glen plaid in the country, in the city, or on the moon. My point is that it shouldn't be an odd jacket. I can see a glen plaid that is theoretically so bold and large-patterned as to be workable as a jacket alone, but that is not the glen plaid we are dealing with and such a glen plaid completely atypical.
post #5285 of 14147
For this threak to reach its apex, other leading lights will need to weigh in with their own assessments. For instance, we already know that Manton and foo.gif differ on the suitability of the white linen square. With only foo.gif passing judgment, the aesthetic is too narrow to encompass "good taste" instead it's just foo.gif's taste. Still, it's more entertaining than it's been in some time.
post #5286 of 14147
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

... Stripping the nuance out of the discussion and passing opinion as fact is a poor way to inspire people to be thoughtful about their clothing choices.
I think this is a very, very important point.
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

...There is always an exception. But I'm not going to waste time writing paragraphs and paragraphs about minutiae that is unlikely to matter when there are bigger points that need tackling...
1. Instead of paragraph after paragraph, you might try peppering a few qualifying words here and there, such as "usually," "virtually always," "typically," etc.
2. Such small qualifiers would save you paragraph after paragraph of defending yourself.
post #5287 of 14147
Uggh. Yes, I could have added a qualifier. I didn't. So in the immediate follow-up post answering Doc, I admitted very clearly that a large enough, bold enough glen plaid is okay for an odd jacket. Yet here we are still debating--what, I don't know.

That said, saying "glen plaid is inappropriate for suiting" is infinitely far better guidance than "glen plaid is perfectly fine for an odd jacket." The former will be right nineteen times out of twenty. The latter is likely to result in a whole bunch of wrong odd jackets.
post #5288 of 14147
Oh, I agree w/ you that most glen plaid is best for suits and that you admitted this quickly. My point was just that in this case, and in general, little qualifiers can be immensely helpful. And to add to your second paragraph, while one is bad and the other is good, even better would be "most glen plaid makes for poor sport coats, the exception being ones with large checks."

Was looking for a long time for a good, large glen check, so I jumped at T4's special run from Breanish.
post #5289 of 14147
This thread could serve as inspiration to a Bravo reality TV show. Seriously...
post #5290 of 14147
I actually agree with Mafoofan that cream silk>white linen on most occasions. It looks better with the everything but plain weave suits.
post #5291 of 14147
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

But aravenel's coat seems to be pretty clearly a suiting scale. I'll preemptively say that I can't quantify the line between the two. But if you look at that next to the LL tweed POW, it's fairly obvious that one really looks like a suit (albeit a loudish one) and one looks like a SC.

Aravenel's check seems to ride the line, IMO. If the general rule is that you must go bigger than that for an SC, then the general rule would be saying that glen plaid is only OK if it's FU, which is bizarre.

The line between when glen plaid is OK for SC and when it's OK for suits, IMO, isn't as simple as whether or not the check is big. It's about whether or not the material itself is distinguishably not suiting. And this has more to do with texture, weave, and pattern than it does with just pattern alone.

Empty has a huge blown up glen check SC that's clearly not suiting, but if I remember correctly, it looks like a much rougher cloth. Even if the scale wasn't so blown up, I would think it's fine for an SC.

Really, what people should avoid is a very smooth worsted with a small glen plaid pattern, but this is kind of obvious. I also don't think Aravenel's material is decidedly one or the other either way.
Edited by dieworkwear - 1/29/13 at 6:43pm
post #5292 of 14147

This thread sure picked up in the past day. Say what you want about his interpersonal skills, foo gets em posting.

post #5293 of 14147
Well, I'm glad to see that my coat could cause such heated discussion!

FWIW, I do wish it were a bit... Louder. It's one of the few coats I have leftover from my early buying days, and I keep it around because it fits me very well, and, well, I like it. But I can definitely see that it's riding the line, so I have to try to keep the rest of the outfit as casual as possible--knit or wool ties, etc.

In other news, I tried getting shots of my outfit today, but failed miserably. Really needed natural light; flash just wasn't cutting it frown.gif Might have to enlist my wife to help. This will be a big sacrifice, as I am sure I will catch no end of ridicule from her for it. Anything in the name of foo.gif!
post #5294 of 14147
Also, does anyone else really, really want to see a recondite fit? lurker[1].gif
post #5295 of 14147
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Also, does anyone else really, really want to see a recondite fit? lurker[1].gif



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