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whnay.'s good taste thread - Page 330

post #4936 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeero3 View Post

I hope I'm not derailing, but I think this conversation would be beneficial to the lurkers and those in early-wardrobe-building mode like myself. I, and my pockets, LOVE the idea of being able to find a navy suit that can double as an odd jacket when switching the pants. The tough part about that is how one jacket can pull off those two different looks and do so successfully. Drawing on the principle that a suit can be dressed down easier than an odd jacket up (which I still agree with), I would START by trying to find a suit that would look fine as a suit while having the below blazer properties I've sketched out:

Solid navy, SB, notch lapel, dual vents, 2 patch pockets, horn buttons, 3 or 2 buttons, soft shoulder, NOT worsted.

The only thing that sticks out to me is the patch pockets and being not worsted. Finding this illusive suit on the cheap is tough. I think I'd have to cough up the dough and look towards someone like Kent Wang to make it up in something I can afford. I don't know how I feel about my first navy suit with notch lapels having patch pockets.......

Hmm. What do you mean by not worsted? A blazer should be made out of a worsted cloth. Were you thinking of a woollen flannel? That would make for a very odd blazer. Just wrong, actually. If you want a cloth suitable for a blazer with more texture, checkout hopsack.

You will not find a RTW navy blue suit with patch pockets. Just isn't out there. A three-roll-two front is also rare. If you are stuck doing RTW, look for a navy suit with double vents with flapped pockets. Then, if the buttons aren't so already, switch them to brown horn. That will suffice.

Otherwise, the only way to get a BlazerSuit like you describe is to get it MTM or bespoke. Don't worry about that if money is an issue. The flapped pockets will be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claghorn View Post

1000


And to bring up an unanswered aspect of my first question: are there any patterns or colors to avoid when getting non OC button down shirts?

Uhh, I'm sure there are colors and patterns to avoid that wouldn't generally apply to all shirts. At first blush, I'm not sure why you'd think about a buttondown-collared shirt that much differently on account of the collar alone. I guess I'd avoid white.
post #4937 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

I can tell you how I feel: It's a bad idea.

Why would you want such a casual detail on what is meant to be a workhorse staple, especially with a limited wardrobe? Neither fish nor fowl, something like that.

Would be of less concern if you have a solid charcoal notch, but do you really want to go to funerals in patch pockets?

Eh. I hear ya, but I think they're alright. Remember, someone with only one suit is not likely to be in situations where people will judge him harshly for having more casual pockets than usual.
post #4938 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Were you thinking of a woollen flannel? That would make for a very odd blazer. Just wrong, actually.

I think Vox has like six of these.
post #4939 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Eh. I hear ya, but I think they're alright. Remember, someone with only one suit is not likely to be in situations where people will judge him harshly for having more casual pockets than usual.

Same people aren't going to know flapped suit coat with brown buttons from a blazer, and that sin is much more venal. Better to have it right when it really matters.
post #4940 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

I think Vox has like six of these.

Vox has at least six of everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

Same people aren't going to know flapped suit coat with brown buttons from a blazer, and that sin is much more venal. Better to have it right when it really matters.

Well, the point is sort of moot. Like I said above, I think if you are pressed by budget, you can do without the patch pockets. Nobody will look askance at a flap-pocketed blazer.
post #4941 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Otherwise, the only way to get a BlazerSuit like you describe is to get it MTM or bespoke. Don't worry about that if money is an issue. The flapped pockets will be fine.
Uhh, I'm sure there are colors and patterns to avoid that wouldn't generally apply to all shirts. At first blush, I'm not sure why you'd think about a buttondown-collared shirt that much differently on account of the collar alone. I guess I'd avoid white.

In the context of formality, I suppose. In my head, I can't imagine certain graph checks in smoother cotton button downs having a place in many outfits. But that might be due to limited sartorial imagination.

 

(and by outfit I mean anything with a jacket and a tie)

post #4942 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Well, the point is sort of moot.

This is splitting hairs, yes. But it's the principle. A solid, notch-lapel suit is THE wardrobe staple, the one thing every man should own. Start screwing around with it because of something you read on a clothing message board and you're halfway to Hell already.
post #4943 of 13329
Doc, it's really not just "something you read on a clothing message board." Manton may have popularized the so-called "BlazerSuit," but the idea was pre-existing.
post #4944 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

I can tell you how I feel: It's a bad idea.

Why would you want such a casual detail on what is meant to be a workhorse staple, especially with a limited wardrobe? Neither fish nor fowl, something like that.

Would be of less concern if you have a solid charcoal notch, but do you really want to go to funerals in patch pockets?

Totally agree. I actually do have a solid dark gray notch (and a charcoal chalk stripe DB and a solid navy SB w peaks--this was bought for my wedding and figured I could throw it in for certain evening occassions), but I still want/need the navy notch flapped workhorse for sure. I just didn't think flapped pockets with a smooth finish would look good for a blazer. But you guys are right, it can double as an acceptable blazer for the time being.
post #4945 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Doc, it's really not just "something you read on a clothing message board." Manton may have popularized the so-called "BlazerSuit," but the idea was pre-existing.

We're talking about a novice buying his first suit, not about whether the blazer suit is a bad idea for a hobbyist adding to the herd. I have a four-button sportcoat, but it wasn't my first, or second, or third.

Step one for building a small wardrobe: Don't screw with the classics based on message board advice from strangers.
post #4946 of 13329
Again, you are mistaking advice for being exclusive to an internet forum just because you heard it there.

I don't think a "blazer suit" is nearly as idiosyncratic as you are making it out to be. Almost six years ago, back in 2007, when I first visited Rubinacci to get my first bespoke clothes, he suggested a "blazer suit" as my first suit. In their house hopsack, of course. It wasn't until years later that the whole BlazerSuit (TM) meme was introduced on Styleforum.

Also, I speak from personal experience. Is that worth something? I got my first navy suit a few years ago. I opted not to get patch pockets, thinking similarly to you that it ought to be a fully standard suit. I have regretted it ever since. Why? Because I realized nobody ever notices my damned pockets--except for aficionados like you and myself, who would not hold it against me. And now I cannot bring myself to order a proper, patch-pocketed blazer because it would be too close to my suit jacket to be worthwhile.

Look, I get the aversion to internet groupthink. But don't insult me by assuming that's where I'm always coming from.
post #4947 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


It wasn't an ad hominem attack. I was making a direct observation. Black cashmere overcoats, black and navy trousers, etc., are extremely odd things within classic menswear. That's not my rule. It's simply a rule I happen to know--and which understand the reasoning behind. If you want to understand that reasoning, sure let's chat. But you are coming from way out in left field with your suggestions. And yes, they do sound like they come out of 90's Banana Republic catalogue.

You don't need dark colors to camouflage anything. Guess what: if you have a fat ass, it's going to look like a fat ass in black, navy, charcoal, purple, green, red, etc. The best way to flatter your fat ass is to get trousers properly cut for it. The best way to look good with a fat ass is not to worry about it so damned much and not let your body obstruct your style. There are plenty of men with irregular physiques that look fantastic even though nobody would ever mistake them for a toned athlete in their outfits.

 

You state things about "Classic Menswear" that I do not believe are true. I believe the reasoning is faulty and based upon a very recent view of menswear, although I could be wrong.

 

A camel hair sport coat with navy twill, worsted, or even flannel trousers is a classic look. Likewise, black flannel or worsted trousers [as opposed to cheap worsted blends] are classic with a black and white herringbone or pick and pick suit jacket worn as a sport coat.

 

These looks come from what was acceptable and proper when people traveled extensively with a limited wardrobe or chose to spend their money on clothing wisely.

 

The trousers from the Glen plaid suit worn during train or automobile travel were paired with a black lounge jacket as a stroller in town.

 

The navy worsted suit trousers from a city suit were matched with a camel hair sport coat on the weekend. The charcoal flannel city suit pants were worn in the same way with the navy blazer. Both are classic sporting outfits. So, three suit pants listed above served six outfits or more.

 

Black lounge with peak lapels might double as a dinner suit when traveling, hence the acceptance of self faced lapels on a dinner jacket, which are not a faux pas, but a matter of style. The pants from the houndstooth suit worn in the country for casual daywear also served as the trousers for the black lounge jacket with peak self faced lapels when worn together as a stroller outfit in town. At home, the houndstooth suit trouser might be worn with a camel hair sport jacket. The Glen plaid suit pants served as a perfect replacement for the houndstooth pants for the same outfits, giving two more different looks.

 

The pants from the windowpane plaid weekend town suit also went with the camel hair sport coat which like the windowpane or gun club check jacket could also be paired with the navy or charcoal town suit pants. The pants from the cream linen summer suit went with the blue blazer, the houndstooth suit jacket, or the windowpane suit jacket for three different summer looks when there was a chill in the air and the event was casual.

 

Each suit had a vest that could migrate around to create other looks when a cardigan didn't serve the same purpose.

 

The only real purpose built "odd" trousers back in the day were summer weight white flannel trousers for tennis and lounging around, the cashmere striped pants of morning wear, riding breeches for horseback or moleskin and whipcord trousers worn for hunting when pushing through the briars that would destroy suit trousers.

 

People were much more frugal back in the day, even many of those with wealth. It is a modern convention to create an outfit from unique pieces for a particular occasion other than a wedding or costume party that might be worn together or individually only once by someone lacking enormous wealth.

 

Just my view of the world Yours may be different.

post #4948 of 13329

oops

post #4949 of 13329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Look, I get the aversion to internet groupthink. But don't insult me by assuming that's where I'm always coming from.

My opinion on this has nothing to do with you -- I wasn't even responding to your suggestion. You just got caught in the crossfire.

Patch pockets are a casual detail. A first suit is not casual wear. There's a reason, as you suggested, he'll never find one.
post #4950 of 13329
You'll have equal trouble finding a RTW grey flannel suit or Harris tweed odd jacket. Yet those things are also core staples. A young man starting out who needs to make the most out of each purchase would do well to get a blazer suit. I hear what you are saying about patch pockets making for a more casual suit, but in this day and age that effect is marginal at best. I have trouble thinking of a social or professional situation where a navy suit old suffice, but only if it does not have patch pockets. Also, nowadays, a young man is probably going to need a blazer more often then a full-blown suit.
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