or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › whnay.'s good taste thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

whnay.'s good taste thread - Page 322

post #4816 of 12310
Thanks for the fabric close-up, IS. I agree that it does have some texture, but still not enough for that tie. I think part of the reason T4 and MF aren't fans of it is that the pattern is usually found on tweed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

I generally agree that more casual combinations look better with blue shirts, etc., but this blanket prohibition on white shirts is nonsense. At one point, "shirt" might reasonably have been synonymous with "white shirt." One might prefer a blue shirt, but a white shirt is not incorrect or inherently in bad taste. This is some groupthink nonsense.

As for the spread collar vs. the button-down, I'm calling bullshit. If a spread collar is more flattering to the wearer, then he should wear that. Or, as in my case, if he just doesn't like button-down collars, no big deal. If there's room in the canon for button-downs with conservative suits, then there's room for a spread collar with an odd jacket.

Stitchy, if the jacket is in fact a smooth worsted, the tie may be a bit too rustic to go with it. I still like this combo better than with the striped shirt, though.
I like white shirts more than Foo or Manton, but I'm not sure Foo was saying all of this. Seems like he only said a white, finely woven, spread-collar shirt is really formal and thus very tough, if not impossible, to pair w/ sport coats.

Take anything out of that combination, and it wasn't what he's saying. So when you say "a white shirt is not incorrect or inherently in bad taste," I think he'd agree with that. Same goes for the spread vs. BD point. Of course, Foo is the king of categorical statements, so you may be right.

Imo, a buttondown can be worn with suits, but I'm not sure all buttondowns can be worn with all suits. Certainly not all spreads can be worn with all sport coats. Texture, color, and collar structure (hard/soft, rolled or sharp edges, ) matter too imo. Stitch's shirt was on the formal end in all aspects. It's a great shirt, but I think such white, finely-woven, sharp spread collared shirts would not go well with any sport coat--except maybe a navy blazer, (that was also paired with gray wool pants and black or oxblood shoes) or a stroller (for Sator). Fwiw, I wear spread collar shirts w/ sport coats all the time, but only ones with very soft collars. And (like Doc H) I wear white ocbd's w/ sport coats frequently. Wore one yesterday.
post #4817 of 12310
Last day of work before 2 weeks back in Asia for a break.

Experimenting with different shades of blue again...

post #4818 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

As for the spread collar vs. the button-down, I'm calling bullshit. If a spread collar is more flattering to the wearer, then he should wear that. Or, as in my case, if he just doesn't like button-down collars, no big deal. If there's room in the canon for button-downs with conservative suits, then there's room for a spread collar with an odd jacket.

I've particularly enjoyed the recent dogma that the buttondown is more "country" than the spread, in that it takes what is largely an Americanism, the buttondown, and forces it on a particularly English concept ... happily ignoring the fact that English country shirts -- the sort worn with tweed -- typically have a spread.

I have to appreciate the dilletantism required to jumble up so many disparate bits of wisdom acquired from SF.
post #4819 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

I generally agree that more casual combinations look better with blue shirts, etc., but this blanket prohibition on white shirts is nonsense. At one point, "shirt" might reasonably have been synonymous with "white shirt." One might prefer a blue shirt, but a white shirt is not incorrect or inherently in bad taste. This is some groupthink nonsense.

It is not nonsense. The formality of white versus other colors when it comes to shirts is well-established. The social connotations of the terms "white collar" and "blue collar" are indicative. This is not a matter of forum groupthink--if it were, so many of you wouldn't dress in such ignorance of the principle.

In the past, when you suppose a "shirt" would mean a "white shirt," people also would not have worn tweed jackets in the city. Go ahead and do your own historical research. I have a hard time recollecting examples of well-dressed men making a habit of wearing white shirts with tweed or other odd jackets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

As for the spread collar vs. the button-down, I'm calling bullshit. If a spread collar is more flattering to the wearer, then he should wear that. Or, as in my case, if he just doesn't like button-down collars, no big deal. If there's room in the canon for button-downs with conservative suits, then there's room for a spread collar with an odd jacket.

Stitchy, if the jacket is in fact a smooth worsted, the tie may be a bit too rustic to go with it. I still like this combo better than with the striped shirt, though.

You are conflating two competing metrics: what is flattering, and what is contextually sensible. There is nothing wrong with spread collars worn with odd jackets, in and of itself. But a white shirt worn with an odd jacket is already mismatching items from different ends of the formality spectrum. Since a spread collar is already more formal than a buttondown or point collar, it is only adding insult to injury. Extra-wrong, in other words.

Suits can be dressed down easier than odd jackets can be dressed up. There are casual suits, but no such thing as a business formal odd jacket. So your reasoning that you can mix and match freely because suits can be worn with more casual shirts doesn't work.

At the end of the day, this is not complicated. You don't even need to know "rules." You could figure all this out just be understanding the nature of the things you're wearing. Stitch's jacket is a casual odd jacket. It is rough in texture, mimicking the look of tweed. A dressy white shirt is an awkward contrast because it fails to pick up on the theme set by the jacket. The result is a confused whole. For those who understand what they are looking at, yes, it is ugly.
post #4820 of 12310
plain.gif

it is not rough. it is textured, yet smooth. it is not ugly.
post #4821 of 12310
Foo and Doc, what do you think about the collar construction and/or finishing (for want of a better term)?

I think that's an element that's largely been missed in this discussion. I wear spread collared shirts w/ sport coats all the time, but always w/ soft construction and no starch. No matter what the color or fabric, I don't think I could see myself wearing a stiff, starched collar w/ a sport coat, w/ the couple possible exceptions mentioned above. But maybe that's just a personal quirk, and not a rule of taste, like herringbone ties.devil.gif
post #4822 of 12310
emptym: I think we're pretty much in agreement. I was trying to broaden the discussion beyond Stitchy's outfit today.

DocHolliday: I'm not sure if you're using my comment as a jumping-off point or you're rebutting it. If the latter, I don't disagree with what you say.

Foo: The two metrics you're conflating are what's historically grounded and what's aesthetically defensible. To use Stitchy's outfit as an example, his relatively smooth, worsted, gray odd jacket combined with a relatively refined, spread-collar, white shirt is aesthetically coherent, if not historically grounded. The discordant element is the rustic tie, even though its pattern and color (or lack thereof) works with the other elements.
post #4823 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

plain.gif

it is not rough. it is textured, yet smooth. it is not ugly.

No, it is not rough as a Harris tweed, but is just as rough as any other "worsted tweed" and much, much rougher than worsted suiting. Many of my odd jackets are made of similar cloth and I would never think in a thousand years to pair them with a white shirt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

Foo and Doc, what do you think about the collar construction and/or finishing (for want of a better term)?

I think that's an element that's largely been missed in this discussion. I wear spread collared shirts w/ sport coats all the time, but always w/ soft construction and no starch. No matter what the color or fabric, I don't think I could see myself wearing a stiff, starched collar w/ a sport coat, w/ the couple possible exceptions mentioned above. But maybe that's just a personal quirk, and not a rule of taste, like herringbone ties.devil.gif

I wear spread collars with my odd jackets all the time, and like yours they are soft. Still, I'm agnostic on the issue of how stiff they should be. Short of literally being starched and rigid as cardboard (who starches their shirts anymore?), I think it's more a matter of personal preference than anything else. Finishing is another matter. Edge stitching is supposed to be more casual then inset stitching, but I think the streamlined look actually cuts against the grain of the casual odd jacket outfit.
post #4824 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

Foo and Doc, what do you think about the collar construction and/or finishing (for want of a better term)?

I think that's an element that's largely been missed in this discussion. I wear spread collared shirts w/ sport coats all the time, but always w/ soft construction and no starch. No matter what the color or fabric, I don't think I could see myself wearing a stiff, starched collar w/ a sport coat, w/ the couple possible exceptions mentioned above. But maybe that's just a personal quirk, and not a rule of taste, like herringbone ties.devil.gif

If memory serves, I was one of the forum's earlier proponents of the buttondown ... but I think the recent insistence on one particular collar with sportcoats has gotten out of hand. BDs look good with the sort of soft-shouldered stuff I typically wear -- and with the Neapolitan stuff SF adores. But I also like a good English spread-collared tattersall, complete with stays, when paired with a more structured coat like you'd see on the Cordings site. As such, I have soft-shouldered tweeds I would never wear with a stiff spread and I have other tweeds that would look all wrong with a BD. It's all about context, and in the right context, the English spread tattersall makes absolute sense. Even the much-decried white OCBD makes sense if you're drawing on mid-century Americana as your reference point.

SF likes hard-and-fast rules, but the modern clothing vocabulary comes from so many places and periods that it becomes difficult to assign narrow definitions to these things. Especially when the conversation is as general as it tends to be here.
post #4825 of 12310
Doc, I'm with you on buttondowns. They are great with odd jackets. It's the white ones that are a mixed bag.
post #4826 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post


DocHolliday: I'm not sure if you're using my comment as a jumping-off point or you're rebutting it. If the latter, I don't disagree with what you say.

The former, but it's always nice when all sides think I'm agreeing with them.
post #4827 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post

The former, but it's always nice when all sides think I'm agreeing with them.

Bismarck would be so proud.
post #4828 of 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Doc, I'm with you on buttondowns. They are great with odd jackets. It's the white ones that are a mixed bag.

I am enjoying the irony of the bolded part when considering to whom it was addressed.
post #4829 of 12310
Another datum. Tweedy odd jacket with refined, spread-collar, blue shirt and knit tie. Discuss.

post #4830 of 12310
^I like that look a lot. Would like it a little more if the collar was a bit rougher, maybe just more worn. Looks like a wool knit tie, which you don't see much of on SF. I love 'em.

Thanks for the great discussion, guys, and for your answer in particular, Doc.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › whnay.'s good taste thread