i dont know who "you guys" is, but i am plenty willing to learn. and as i just said, while his very technical points were not incorrect, that does not mean the fit is necessarily ugly. is my shirt technically to light weight a fabric for my tie, probably, but it still looks good, not just to me, but to others here as well. i am not saying that you or anyone has to like it. few fits are universally seen as good or bad (ok, some are universally bad). but just because someone does not like it, and just because some very nuanced points may not be right, does make a fit objectively bad.