Non-Rule "Rules"

jrd617 · Jul 30, 2012

mafoofan said:
Sorry Spoo--you seem like a nice guy, but you dress poorly, and it doesn't have to be that way.

lol wut

Liquidus · Jul 30, 2012

mafoofan said:
That is certainly the popular opinion here, but you will find that many of the better informed members would strongly disagree. Sorry Spoo--you seem like a nice guy, but you dress poorly, and it doesn't have to be that way.
Think less about finding "combos." We are not women. We don't buy outfits. We build wardrobes. Buy staples that can be easily paired. Learn to do that by picking up "rules" and learning what is classic. You will naturally develop your own taste and eccentricities over time without trying to grow a personality.
For fall/winter trousers: buy many, many pairs in light or medium grey. Flannel or twill are very versatile. The former arguably looks and feels better, but the latter is harder wearing and perhaps easier to take care of. You can wear grey trousers with pretty much any jacket without having to think hard about it.
For jackets, concentrate on simple, staple patterns with brown and tan backgrounds. Preferably, these jackets should be in rough, textured cloth appropriate for odd jackets. Anything smooth and fine is wrong. Get a navy blue blazer.
Shirts: light blue should be your staple. Again, can be worn with anything. Branch out with some blue/white patterned shirts (checks, stripes, etc.). Reserve other colors for when you have build up enough of a foundation and get used to using it effectively. Reserve white shirts for business formal dress. Don't wear them with odd jackets.
Shoes: don't feel the need to buy many black pairs, though you should have one pair of black cap toes (punch caps if you like) for when you want to look the most business formal possible (to go with your white shirt). Instead, pick up many brown and burgundy shoes. In my opinion medium to dark brown, along with cordovan, are the the most versatile. Lighter browns and and warmer chestnut-oriented hues can be very striking and beautiful, but are often harder to wear because they stand out more (they don't work well with dark grey suits, for example).
Done. More or less.

What about people (Eastern Asian) with a skin tone that doesn't go well with brown jackets?

TheFoo · Jul 30, 2012

Geezer said:
Your orthodoxy and my associationalism are quite close concepts. My argument (as per the navy blazer) would be that orthodoxy changes, sometimes dramatically.

Sure, but the orthodoxy now is what it is.

jrd617 said:
lol wut

Truth. Mainly due to inattention to detail and context. Sad, because he has a decent sense of color. Could be much better if he tried. Tends to only be the newbies that don't realize how much he is off.

Nothing I haven't said to him before.

Liquidus said:
What about people (Eastern Asian) with a skin tone that doesn't go well with brown jackets?

I ignore skin tone in my calculus. Some would say that's an egregious error, but I have never seen or heard advice oriented toward pairing clothing with skin tone that I found worthwhile.

The mind's eye tends to see skin color as skin color, whether that be brown, tan, white, etc. It does not confuse it for a piece of tweed.

mmkn · Jul 30, 2012

mafoofan said:
We are not women.

True (last I checked).

But we dress ourselves for women, while many dress so that their wardrobe "go together" and for their buddies to pat them on their back, all the while being blind as a bat or deluded as the fabled Emperor.

Carry on . . .

- M

unbelragazzo · Jul 30, 2012

mafoofan said:
It does not confuse it for a piece of tweed.

This is fortunate, especially for those who lived before tweed was appropriate for the city.

TheFoo · Jul 30, 2012

mmkn said:
True (last I checked).
But we dress ourselves for women . . .
- M

Even if true, so what?

I don't see how dressing for women means thinking like them about how to dress.

JLibourel · Jul 30, 2012

Manton said:
Navy trousers are objectively wrong.
I don't own a navy shirt and don't think I ever would but I do have a navy sweater and a sort of cotton pullover that are OK.
re: suits without ties, the only time I do this is when I am travelling and I don't want to pack the suit and I don't want to bother with a tie. Makes me feel vaguely sketchy, like a pick up artist, mobster, or professional con man.

I know we've had discussions about this before, but I have never been quite able to savvy what's wrong about navy trousers.

I rather like an open-necked shirt with a casual, summer suit. I would be flattered to be mistaken for a mobster as long as it was a don and not a "soldier." I guess I would also be flattered to be taken for a pick up artist, especially at my age!

jrd617 · Jul 30, 2012

-People with sloping shoulders should not wear soft shoulder jackets
-Only double vents. Never single
-Never wear derbies with suits
-Never wear button downs with suits
-Never buy knit ties with square ends
-Ties 3.25 to 3.5 inches wide only (40R person)
-Socks always match shoes or pants

TheFoo · Jul 30, 2012

Casual summer suit with unbuttoned shirt is fine by me, though I'd strongly prefer that shirt to have a button-down collar.

TM79 · Jul 30, 2012

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with my posts although I didn't word it well enough. I don't want to write down 4 items to buy and have an "outfit".

I just want a navy blazer (have one now) and a few other sport coats that will be interchangeable with different trouser, shirt, and tie combos. I just want to make sure I don't make any drastic mistakes when I start doing this.

From reading these posts, I definitely need to purchase a few more greys for my pants. I recently switched to MTM for shirts and ordered a batch of 6 that are pretty much wardrobe staples. I plan on doing the same for a fall/winter wardrobe very soon. All the shirts are barrel cuff and semi-spread collar. I don't like cuff links so I stayed away from french cuff shirts.

I should be all set for shoes, I think. I have a pair of black cap toe as well as a pair of AE Strands in walnut plus a pair of Alden shoes in a more traditional and darker shade of brown and I own a pair of oxblood (cognac?) AE Park Avenue shoes as well.

in stitches · Jul 30, 2012

unbelragazzo said:
I think I could like it, but it would depend on the fabric. Almost-black, looks-like-they-came-from-a-suit trouser, no. But a slightly more textured, slightly lighter charcoal, yes. I should add, although...I'm not much for "rules" in general in the strictest sense. And there could be other reasons for the disdain of the navy odd trouser than what I have mentioned here, that don't extend to the charcoal trouser, so I'll wait for those who first began the navy trouser discussion in this thread to further justify their opposition to the navy trouser.

im not sure what pants im going to use yet, as i havent received the jacket yet, but i have a bunch off gray office pants in all different colors and textures. i think at least one of them should work.

mafoofan said:
The problem with navy blue trousers is not that they are difficult to match color-wise, but that orthodox expectations of formality reserve them for wearing as part of a business suit.

interesting. not enough to deter me though. certainly not in baltimore, where i work. but is good to know in case i find myself in a different setting, i may avoid it there.

Manton said:
I think there may be something else to the no navy trouser thing.
For many decades before WW2 by far the most common suit was blue serge. Men who only owned one suit owned a blue serge. It was their "Sunday best." They would often wear them as separates, and more often the pants seperatly since working class men really had no call for odd jackets. So blue pants got a lower class connotation.
If you read Depression era literature such as Steinbek and Dos Passos, many of the lower class/working class characters will be described as wearing blue serge pants.

considering my present stature, that works out quite well actually.

Omar1223 · Jul 30, 2012

foo can you please give some examples of rough, textured cloth suitable for an odd jacket? the only thing i can think of is donegal tweed

thanks in advance

JLibourel · Jul 30, 2012

mafoofan said:
Casual summer suit with unbuttoned shirt is fine by me, though I'd strongly prefer that shirt to have a button-down collar.

But of course! That almost goes without saying.

Thomas · Jul 30, 2012

pocketsquareguy said:
I wear jeans with every odd jacket I own on a frequent basis, yet I never wear blue pants with any of them.

I do the same.

in stitches said:
i know others have expressed general dislike of navy office pants, but i find with darker blues, like navy, a brown or gray SC looks very nice. just my opinion.

I can't do it. I've tried and feel uncomfortable. Now, a bright (e.g. orange) sweater, I don't mind so much.

in stitches said:
i meant just that maybe you could wear lighter navy with a darker brown SC. i actually have a combo that i have been waiting to wear that is like this, but its at the tailor. ill lyk when its up, id like to hear your opinion.
at to darker navy, i personally like them, for sure with no SC, but maybe even with a SC. but there i agree, its hard to find a darker SC for dark navy trou.
as to the lighter SC issue. here is one i have just kopped. was planning on wearing with charcoal trou, but i would call the trou darker than the SC, at least based off of the pic. where does that fall in the scheme of these "rules" iyo?

I had a remarkably similar jacket about 20 years ago - same color and pattern (but Burberry). Never, ever wore it. Part of it was likely my youth, but even now I doubt I would pull it off the hanger.

Manton said:
I think there may be something else to the no navy trouser thing.
For many decades before WW2 by far the most common suit was blue serge. Men who only owned one suit owned a blue serge. It was their "Sunday best." They would often wear them as separates, and more often the pants seperately since working class men really had no call for odd jackets. So blue pants got a lower class connotation.
If you read Depression era literature such as Steinbeck and Dos Passos, many of the lower class/working class characters will be described as wearing blue serge pants.

Very interesting.

....

I read this thread and realize I probably break more rules than I should. That said, if my wife likes how I'm dressed on a given day, I should probably go back to the closet and change something. Unless we're meeting her friends.

I have green ties: I never, ever reach for them. Probably after-shocks of parochial education. I have only recently allowed myself to wear a khaki odd jacket. (baby steps)
Loafers are not happening for me, at all, ever. I require laces.
Silk knots only with french cuffs (except black tie).

Bounder · Jul 30, 2012

Now that almost everyone's here -- I expect Vox will be along shortly -- perhaps we should see about making this threak epic.

mafoofan said:
That is certainly the popular opinion here, but you will find that many of the better informed members would strongly disagree. Sorry Spoo--you seem like a nice guy, but you dress poorly, and it doesn't have to be that way.

I have gone after Spoo on occasion myself. But he has improved quite a bit since he first started posting. So I think there is hope for him. Since I started on this forum, though, you haven't even changed your shoes.

Spoo may have an entirely too-wide comfort zone but yours is entirely too narrow, especially for anyone to ever consider emulating. In a way, you are one of the worst dressers here because you don't actually dress at all. You have said yourself that your goal is to reduce your wardrobe to a uniform so you can wear the same thing all the time. I find that utterly sad and a great waste.

It is a pity because it doesn't have to be that way. You have an outstanding eye for fit and a great deal of general sartorial knowledge. If you could break out a bit, you could rival Manton in his ability to produce outstanding conservative business dress that is both elegant and memorable.

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