I personally will stick to my suggestion. Also Dinner jacket and Shawl goes hand in hand, it is the most classic look for diner suit, in my opinion.
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Wedding Tux: Shawl vs. Peak for broad/muscular shoulders - Page 2
Styleforum Top Pickspost #17 of 387/17/12 at 4:49ampost #18 of 387/17/12 at 5:18amGiven that the OP signaled that his budget is limited (that is, normal), a lot of the suggestions in this thread are superfluous.
OP: go to a store and try on different dinner jackets. Pick the one that you think looks and fits best. The try-on test for RTW is far more important than the ask-people-on-Styleforum test.post #19 of 387/17/12 at 6:36amQuote:
Oh yeah, didn't read that bit. I guess another option may be to take it easy at the gym for a while, drink some more beer and eat lots, try to get your physique to match the average otr jacket!post #20 of 387/17/12 at 7:15amI don't know which style lapel you should choose but the bigger issue is getting something to fit. This jacket in your picture doesn't fit. The overall fit will override any strength or deficiency of the lapel style. The issue with fitting you isn't your chest/waist ratio as much as your chest/arm ratio and the shape of your chest and slope of your shoulders. It's the relationship of your chest measure and your overarm measure. Even the jacket in your picture doesn't have enough cloth across your chest. A normal 42 jacket has a 48-49 overarm ( measuring your chest over your arms and not under the arms) Your overarm is probably 52 to 54. The reality is if you can get a jacket with an armhole/sleeve to fit your arms, the chest and back will be way too large and the jacket waist will be so big you can't alter it. If you fit your chest you won't have enough armhole and sleeve width to move easily. Because of the shape of your chest and shoulder slope, it is very difficult to get a jacket to lay over your chest without buckling. Add to this your issues with front/back balance and the lapels become irrelevant or at least a lesser concern. Point is, a proper fit will enhance your appearance to a greater extent, regardless of which lapel you choose.
MTM is risky for your build and no guarantee of a perfect fit. Having a custom tux is more expensive.
If you are set on wearing a tuxedo you have to do some work and get the best fitting jacket you can find. If you can put a few extra bucks into having something made you will appreciate the better fit. If it is impractical to have a tux made, consider wearing a suit. Afterwards, you will have a well fitted suit that you can wear when you need it.post #21 of 387/17/12 at 12:39pmpost #22 of 387/17/12 at 2:08pmQuote:Originally Posted by E,TF
The correct shape for shawl lapels can be seen here (about 1.50) - Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) As you can see, they do get narrower as they go up. For someone with broad shoulders such as yourself, there's a risk that this will leave you with acres of empty cloth between the lapels and your shoulders, which could make you look even wider. Well-sized peak lapels stand a better chance of filling up that space and creating a balanced look overall, and may be easier to find off the rack than a good shawl.
But as others have said, go try both on and see how they look. Then go MTM or bespoke if you can afford to.
There's no one way to shape a shawl lapel, though finding one with a better shape to fit your form probably means bespoke.
I would go with a moderately sized peak, to emphasize the v shape. In men, that's a good thing. Make the shoulders look big and the waist look small. You already have that physique, so why not shove it in everyone's face? But if you like the shawl, and the ones you try on don't look silly to your eye in terms of shape, go for what you like. In the end, it's a personal choice, and proportioned right, either style can look great on anybody.post #23 of 387/20/12 at 9:01amThread Starter
I really do appreciate all your replies on here. They've been most helpful. I agree that fit is the top priority here (as an aside, the jacket in the pics above is a 41S, and just realized it's "slim fit", so even that is a little smaller than what I usually wear/need). As I said, money is a bit of an issue here, so my options are a bit more limited than I'd like. I know that as long as I can find something that fits well (fits across the shoulders, isn't "slim fit", etc), I can hopefully rely on a good tailor to help shape the midsection of the jacket.
This is a pretty basic question, but how "easy" is it for a tailor to take in pants throughout the legs? I have a pretty sizeable back-side from heavy squats/deadlifts, and solid legs, but most of the time if slacks are some sort of "slim fit" or "tailored fit" they look like huge pajama/sweat pants hanging straight down, super baggy, with enormous leg openings at the bottom. The pants with my "slim fit" suit are a size 33 waist (I'm usually a 32), because I've found that if I size up there an inch or two in slim fit pants, they still fit me fine through the seat of the pants, but tend to look like real pants should look (non-baggy, slimmer profile, not too tight).
Anyway, just kinda tossing questions out there. I feel like a nonslim, regular-fit 42S jacket with some solid tailoring to take it in at the waist coupled with a pair of slim-fit pants is the best combination on my frame, but that's not really a viable option . . . I've only ever had a tailor hem my pants, and have no idea how feasible it is to make an entire pant leg "slimmer."
Thanks for putting up with my likely newbie-ish questions. Also note that I am certainly willing to settle for a "good" fit rather than a "perfect" fit, especially since the difference between the two may be financially large (and I realize the jacket in my pics does not fit anywhere near "good."). My groomsmen will likely be all renting (not from MW), so hopefully any bit of planning/tailoring on my part will still have me looking pretty good by comparison. Ultimately the wedding is about my fiancee and I, and I want to look as good as I can, but not stress about it to the point where I forget what the day is about. Plus, everyone else is going to be looking at her anyway.post #24 of 387/20/12 at 1:43pm
taking in pant legs is not a big to do.. it's the upper part that can be a lot of work (and $$$) to tailor because of waist band and pocket etc.. if you find something that fits in the "shorts" area, the legs are practically a 'while you wait' job.. might even get the work done without having to pay extra..
*** I'm talking about regular dress and suit pants.. tuxedo pants with the fancy stripe down the side may be a totally different situation.. I don't know, never seen a pair close enogh to see how they're put together..post #25 of 387/20/12 at 2:45pmI have a very similar build (5'8", 170lbs). My true chest and waist measurements are 41.5" and 33", so I end up buying a 42S jacket and 32" pants. I think Despos gave a fantastic response, and I find that my large overarm measurement presents a significant issue with the way a jackets lays on me. In my MTM experiences, I wasn't completely satisfied and find that I have better results when I try on RTW jackets and tailor them if they already fit well in the shoulders and chest. I also find that jackets with more natural shoulders work better because the side of my arms do not stick out past the shoulder line as much, as is the case with the jacket you have on in your picture.
I like peak lapels as they show off the build that you already worked hard for. I do not know your price range, but I suggest the following:
- Try Brooks Brothers. You can do the Suiting Essentials for a tuxedo and order the jacket and pants separate. You can be done with everything, including the tailoring and tax for about $700. I started off going this route for suiting and find that I prefer the 42S Madison cut over the 42S Regent because I needed more shoulder width in the jacket. For the jacket, they reduced the chest near the arm openings, suppressed the waist and fixed the roll in the neck. For the pants, I ordered a 34" in the Milano fit to accommodate my seat and thighs, then have it tailored to a 8.25" leg opening.
- Try Samuelsohn. I own some MTM garments from them in size 43S and the Gable cut, but find that the jackets do not drape as nicely on my body as other brands I own. The price would be over double the price from the Brooks Brothers option, but the jackets are fully canvassed (vs half canvassed at Brooks Brothers).
- Try Ralph Lauren. Blue label (Polo) works ok, Black Label won't find your arms and shoulders and Purple Label is heavily padded which might work, but expensive.
- Try Neiman Marcus. Depending on your location, you can try on Armani, Zegna, Brioni, etc. I like the shape of Brioni and ended up buying a few sportcoats in 42S in the Nomentano cut, but now find the shoulder width not as wide as I would like. In Zegna, I find that a 54C works in the Roma fit (44S), but my arms still stick out slightly. This is also the case for me with Tom Ford, Base A and Base B in a 54C.
- Try W.W. Chan. I haven't tried this route yet but I am considering it due to high praise from this forum. Prices would be under $2k from what I've read.
- do the BB route or
- find a RTW jacket that fits in the shoulders and chest, with pants that fit in seat and waist
This will provide a very good fit for you based on my own difficulties. Unfortunately, bespoke is the only way to get an excellent fit in the jacket with slim pants that are flattering, in my opinion.post #26 of 387/21/12 at 9:47amOP your pics are a classic example of a suit jacket utterly destroying (visually at least) a well-proportioned body underneath. You weren't meant to wear the modern lounge coat, or at least the conventional one with shoulder padding, roomy sleeves, etc. Just for future reference, you should seek out jackets with no padding whatsoever, slim sleeves, low button stance and wide lapels; you'll probably want a fabric with some stretch as well because you have more expansion and contraction than normal due to your musculature. The goal is to let your natural frame show through as that is your best asset. It may make you look more casual without shoulder padding, but to me that's way better than the bulky Governator look.post #27 of 387/21/12 at 12:34pmYou need a very natural shoulder tux that fits- has some drape.
I prefer notch lapels, which makes me a pariah to the SF consensus.
The last time I looked, Paul Stuart had such a tux, although it might have to
be MTM to get side vents.
http://www.paulstuart.com/category_template_viewall.cfm?ProdCatId=1035&subProdCatId=0&MainCatId=14&headermenuid=1post #28 of 388/4/12 at 7:29pmThread Starter
Thanks guys, you are all extremely helpful on this matter. And all the input is greatly appreciated.
To further solidify the point that I probably can't buy off the rack, I stopped by Macy's and Nordstrom today just to try on a bunch of random suit jackets to get a feel for whether certain brands/styles fit better than others, and which size(s) seemed to work best in which brands. What I found is that I really can't find one that fits me the way I think a suit should truly fit (not accounting for what I would need to tailor anyway, like having the waist taken in). At the same time, I also know that I can't afford expensive bespoke clothing, or even a lot of MTM stuff.
I suspect I will probably be vilified for this, but I have been strongly considering going the Indochino/BlackLapel route. The more we plan this wedding, the more I realize cutting costs anywhere I can is a must. There are of course some things the fiancee refuses to budge on (and often rightfully so, like the food), and I certainly am not willing to look like a complete slob at my own wedding, but I think that a cheap "MTM" tuxedo might be my best option at this point.
My considerations that led me to this conclusion:
1. I am big into lifting/bodybuilding, but my schedule can at times be such that months (and even years) go by where I am working out a lot less (like during parts of medical school a few years ago) and tend to deflate a bit in size. Not that I fluctuate from like a 36 to a 42 jacket or anything crazy, but enough that going super expensive for something that fits every millimeter of my body is gonna be overkill and unnecessary and probably not in my best interest anyway.
2. I am currently a resident physician, so my salary is not great and my debt is huge. I'm fortunate enough to have matched into a very awesome field where I will be extremely well compensated in the future (with very good hours as well), but for the next ~4 years I'm on a pretty tight budget.
3. As I posted on another thread, as a 30 year-old with a very high debt-to-salary ratio and a somewhat fluid body habitus, it makes the most sense (to me at least) to invest in very good footwear more so than trying to break the bank with very expensive threads that may become obsolete in the near future should I suddenly find myself way too busy to keep up with the lifting. I've always found that, on a budget, a well-tailored inexpensive wardrobe punctuated with nice shoes can trump other similarly priced options.
4. Again, I am in a career that, while classically considered to be part of the "social elite", doesn't really lend itself to black tie affairs terribly often. Particularly not where I am currently in residency (not really near a metro area). I can only think of two occasions for which I would need a tuxedo in the remotely near future: my own wedding, and my fiancee's cousin's black-tie wedding a month after our own. So this tux would fill both roles, and will fit the same for both wearings (whereas there's no guarantee my tux will still fit me perfectly 5-10 years from now).
I kind of realize that some of the arguments I've posed also make it seem more reasonable to rent; however, I've never seen a rental tux that didn't make me want to throw up. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this matter. There was a deal on google deals or whatever recently that had Indochino suits/shirts(including tux shirts) and ties (including bowties) all together for ~$350) (a ~$530 value). I mean for someone looking for a good value on a budget, can you really beat that? I'm really hoping that deal pops up again (it apparently happened at least twice in the past year or so). It may not be the highest of quality (I've read the threads about the quality of materials Indochino uses and such) but again this probably isn't something I'll be wearing too frequently so it's not as if it needs to be as durable as a good suit I wear on a regular basis.
What do you guys think? I know that a lot of you here are a little older than I and much more experienced in the world of menswear . . . and I also realize that some of you have worked for years in finance/business/etc and are in a different place in your lives, financially. So hopefully you can keep my situation (youngish doctor-in-training with a ton of debt but a strong upside in the future) in mind.
Thanks!post #29 of 388/4/12 at 8:19pmpost #30 of 388/4/12 at 8:22pmThread Starter
- Wedding Tux: Shawl vs. Peak for broad/muscular shoulders
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