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Men's watch at the $5K mark? - Page 7

post #91 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant kill da Rooster View Post

You will find a lot of people disagree with this notion. Don't let it discourage you from buying a watch under 5k. Blanket statements like this are misleading.
Perhaps you meant to apply this to the new manufacturer's price. In that case I would mostly agree with you but even then, not in all cases.

What do you mean by "new manufacturer"? I think you may be using a different definition of "manufacture" than the quoted poster.
post #92 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

What do you mean by "new manufacturer"? I think you may be using a different definition of "manufacture" than the quoted poster.

I am guessing his comments are referring to the retailer's listed price. If that's the case, then I agree with him in that they are often way overpriced. That was what I meant.
post #93 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant kill da Rooster View Post

I am guessing his comments are referring to the retailer's listed price. If that's the case, then I agree with him in that they are often way overpriced. That was what I meant.

Ok, now I think I understand the disconnect. In watchmaking, the term "manufacture" (with an "e" on the end) refers to watch companies making the movements in-house, vs. outsourcing that to a movement maker (ETA, a Swatch subsidiary, is by far the biggest). Companies known for producing their own movements are Rolex, JLC and Patek, though there are a number of others and even more who make some movements in-house, like IWC, Omega or Cartier.

The point of the previous poster was that at $5k you cannot find many with in-house movements but at the same time that's too much money to pay for a watch with a mass-produced ETA base movement. Therefore, in his opinion, it's sort of an awkward price point and one should either go lower (if buying something with an outsourced movement) or higher (in order to have access to a wide range of manufacture movements). Particularly for those buying stainless steel pieces, I tend to lean this way myself (unless you want a very basic Rolex or certain Omegas).
post #94 of 163
I understand but I think he was saying that anything under 5k is not worth buying. What WIS doesn't admire Patek or AP but to call a watch crap because it's a Longines, IWC, Nomos or Omega is elitist. If the OP is looking for a watch under 5k, the response shouldn't be, you need to spend more.
post #95 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant kill da Rooster View Post

I understand but I think he was saying that anything under 5k is not worth buying. What WIS doesn't admire Patek or AP but to call a watch crap because it's a Longines, IWC, Nomos or Omega is elitist. If the OP is looking for a watch under 5k, the response shouldn't be, you need to spend more.

Perhaps I need to reread the post, but I don't think that's what he was saying at all. I think what he was saying was that spending $5k on a non-manufacture piece was a waste of money and that one should look at lower priced options when going with an outsourced movement because the quality will be similar to what may be purchased at $5k. So if I'm interpreting the post correctly, he's saying that getting an Omega for $3k is a much better value than buying a Cartier (with the ETA movement) for $5k because you won't get more quality by spending the extra $2k. It was a question of value for the money, not the overall quality of one brand vs. another.
post #96 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

he's saying that getting an Omega for $3k is a much better value than buying a Cartier (with the ETA movement) for $5k because you won't get more quality by spending the extra $2k. It was a question of value for the money, not the overall quality of one brand vs. another.

That's a fair statement. I am concerned by generalizations to say there is no value in a watch with an ETA movement or in house movements under 5k. I understand a lot of enthusiasts do not want to spend money on an ETA movement but if you mean to overpay for one, well that is what we want to avoid for all watches.

fistbump.gif
post #97 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

A few notable exceptions (to the $5k manufacture observation, not the value observation), in my opinion, are the most basic Rolexes, some uncomplicated Zeniths (the Captain on leather retails for $5k exactly) and the more basic Co-axial Omegas (if you call them true manufacture movements).

Yes, but in my opinion, these are not really manufacture movements of true quality. They are simply, okay.
post #98 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant702 View Post

I dont subsrcibe to the so called "MANUFACTURE THEME," Even Rolex uses ETA for Tudor! That's a inside joke being played, for your VANITY! I agree 101% with ~b~ icon_gu_b_slayer%5B1%5D.gifI know I'm new here, but has anyone ever talked about the cost of owner- ship of this stuff? If your rich, then it does not apply, obviously! You gotta get'em serviced sometime, and when you do, trust me you will not like the prices! And of course you can reject the service, but still be on the hook for charges! 

Thanks for concurring. ETA movements are good for what they are - simply workhorse machines. You are right that very few people consider the cost of ownership of a watch. On a mid-grade brand like a JLC for a simple 3 hand watch, the servicing is 650 CHF every 4-5 years, which adds up to many thousands over a lifetime. Servicing for complicated pieces like tourbillons would be eye-popping to most. This is mainly because of the brand monopoly on servicing knowhow, plus the fear that external watchmakers will damage or swap parts in a watch. Sometimes I agree it is more hassle than happiness, owning several expensive watches.

Of course the ideal is both to have a manufacture movement coupled with inexpensive or even free servicing. Such a thing exists, believe it or not smile.gif
post #99 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant kill da Rooster View Post

You will find a lot of people disagree with this notion. Don't let it discourage you from buying a watch under 5k. Blanket statements like this are misleading.
Perhaps you meant to apply this to the new manufacturer's price. In that case I would mostly agree with you but even then, not in all cases.

I think you misread my statement. I was certainly not opining that no watch under 5k is worth buying. Refer to post below.
post #100 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

Ok, now I think I understand the disconnect. In watchmaking, the term "manufacture" (with an "e" on the end) refers to watch companies making the movements in-house, vs. outsourcing that to a movement maker (ETA, a Swatch subsidiary, is by far the biggest). Companies known for producing their own movements are Rolex, JLC and Patek, though there are a number of others and even more who make some movements in-house, like IWC, Omega or Cartier.
The point of the previous poster was that at $5k you cannot find many with in-house movements but at the same time that's too much money to pay for a watch with a mass-produced ETA base movement. Therefore, in his opinion, it's sort of an awkward price point and one should either go lower (if buying something with an outsourced movement) or higher (in order to have access to a wide range of manufacture movements). Particularly for those buying stainless steel pieces, I tend to lean this way myself (unless you want a very basic Rolex or certain Omegas).

Yes that was what I meant by the term manufacture. The Franco-Swiss word for companies that make their own movements.

Your second paragraph encapsulates what I meant exactly.
post #101 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant kill da Rooster View Post

I understand but I think he was saying that anything under 5k is not worth buying. What WIS doesn't admire Patek or AP but to call a watch crap because it's a Longines, IWC, Nomos or Omega is elitist. If the OP is looking for a watch under 5k, the response shouldn't be, you need to spend more.

Not what I was saying at all. Please refer to the poster who replied to you for what I meant.

I hold Nomos in high regard, and it's really a matter of horses for courses.

And I would be the last person to say that any watch under 5k is not worth buying. Refer to my signature.

What I meant was that one needs to buy wisely and astutely for any watch under 5k to not get fleeced. Indeed the same rationale applies to watches above 5k, but with a different approach.
post #102 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ B ~ View Post

Thanks for concurring. ETA movements are good for what they are - simply workhorse machines. You are right that very few people consider the cost of ownership of a watch. On a mid-grade brand like a JLC for a simple 3 hand watch, the servicing is 650 CHF every 4-5 years, which adds up to many thousands over a lifetime. Servicing for complicated pieces like tourbillons would be eye-popping to most. This is mainly because of the brand monopoly on servicing knowhow, plus the fear that external watchmakers will damage or swap parts in a watch. Sometimes I agree it is more hassle than happiness, owning several expensive watches.
Of course the ideal is both to have a manufacture movement coupled with inexpensive or even free servicing. Such a thing exists, believe it or not smile.gif


Not sure I agree that JLC is "mid-grade" nor would I agree that it costs that much to service for routine service. I had my Patek (simple three-hand plus date automatic) overhauled for about $800 by an authorized watchmaker so I'd imagine a JLC, particularly a manual wind version, would run a bit less.
post #103 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

Not sure I agree that JLC is "mid-grade" nor would I agree that it costs that much to service for routine service. I had my Patek (simple three-hand plus date automatic) overhauled for about $800 by an authorized watchmaker so I'd imagine a JLC, particularly a manual wind version, would run a bit less.

Well i can see where it adds up actually. Lets say you take your $800 overhaul then add in the costs of new watch straps, I used my brand new Vacheron Constantin for about 2 years before part of the strap broke, not a vital part but more along the lines of a annoyance that bothers you when you put it on and to replace it would be about $400 dollars. Another example is i got a new 5296G a few weeks ago and the salesman told me its not uncommon to need to replace the strap every 3-4 years and to just wait till a replacement strap is needed to replace the regular strap with a deployment clasp. I must state that this is if you are buying straps from the actual brand and there may be cheaper alternatives but for arguments sake lets say we factor in these costs. They do add up over time if you think about it..... Then again you did say it was "an overhaul" how much would a regular 4-5 year service be? As i stated before both of these are still within the first 5ish year gap before servicing so Im not actually sure about the "regular servicing" price but i would imagine it would be at least several hundreds of dollars

Edit: Btw agree with you completely about JLC they are probably the most underrated of the high end manufacturers. I believe they often get put into a "lower" category because they have a lower price point and thats nothing against their movements its just because Patek, VC, ALS, Breguet etc all use precious metals while JLC has some in stainless steel
post #104 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff13007 View Post

Well i can see where it adds up actually. Lets say you take your $800 overhaul then add in the costs of new watch straps, I used my brand new Vacheron Constantin for about 2 years before part of the strap broke, not a vital part but more along the lines of a annoyance that bothers you when you put it on and to replace it would be about $400 dollars. Another example is i got a new 5296G a few weeks ago and the salesman told me its not uncommon to need to replace the strap every 3-4 years and to just wait till a replacement strap is needed to replace the regular strap with a deployment clasp. I must state that this is if you are buying straps from the actual brand and there may be cheaper alternatives but for arguments sake lets say we factor in these costs. They do add up over time if you think about it..... Then again you did say it was "an overhaul" how much would a regular 4-5 year service be? As i stated before both of these are still within the first 5ish year gap before servicing so Im not actually sure about the "regular servicing" price but i would imagine it would be at least several hundreds of dollars
Edit: Btw agree with you completely about JLC they are probably the most underrated of the high end manufacturers. I believe they often get put into a "lower" category because they have a lower price point and thats nothing against their movements its just because Patek, VC, ALS, Breguet etc all use precious metals while JLC has some in stainless steel

I don't know what a "regular" service would be; in the 7 years since I've owned my PP it's needed service twice because it simply stopped running... As for the straps, mine is a bit of an unusual circumstance; I wear a 5065 and while the tropical straps are cheaper than the leather there isn't a "generic" version out there.

I think the thing with JLC is more that they make a greater number of "basic" watches vs. highly complicated. As far as I know, everyone except Lange makes at least one stainless piece though none of the ultra-high-end makers do a stainless dress watch as JLC does. Or maybe they just haven't invested the same in marketing as the others so there isn't the same mystique around them.
post #105 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelesStyle View Post

I don't know what a "regular" service would be; in the 7 years since I've owned my PP it's needed service twice because it simply stopped running... As for the straps, mine is a bit of an unusual circumstance; I wear a 5065 and while the tropical straps are cheaper than the leather there isn't a "generic" version out there.
I think the thing with JLC is more that they make a greater number of "basic" watches vs. highly complicated. As far as I know, everyone except Lange makes at least one stainless piece though none of the ultra-high-end makers do a stainless dress watch as JLC does. Or maybe they just haven't invested the same in marketing as the others so there isn't the same mystique around them.

True, its ironic though because JLC used to make the movements for both PP and VC, PP moved to in house a long time ago and VC is doing the same but a lot of VC movements are still JLC if i am not mistaken, i think my VC which is a malte grande classique was one of their first in house movements (1400) for a basic manual dress watch, and previously they were done by JLC. Hell even Cartier who's watches people fawn over were up until very recently all JLC movements (at least as of yesterday there are still JLC movement carriers but the salesman said they are transitioning). Btw JLC has a lot of highly complicated watches, i think they make more (production numbers) highly complicated ones that PP, Maybe not VC or Breguet but I'm sure they at least make more (production numbers) complicated ones than PP. I was reading an interesting article on the come back of Vacheron Constantin and it said one of their strategies was to start doing more basic dress watches to try and capture some of the market from patek.
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