bespoke math

tchoy · Jun 7, 2012

You may want to try WW Chan which tours NYC from Hong Kong. It will be considerably less than $3000. Do a search on the forum.

Eustace Tilley · Jun 7, 2012

unbelragazzo said:
Yea I was thinking a different ballpark. For some reason, which obviously now must be unfounded but I can't remember it regardless, I thought he was something like twice that.

Not an unfair assumption, as the big NY names (Raphael-Corvato-Logsdail, etc.) are all $5K+.

jeff13007 · Jun 7, 2012

Maximus Mark said:
Don't do it. For $3 G's, find a tailor that does construction on premises, with a paper pattern cut for you and basted fittings.
Made-in-Asia is not bespoke but MTM and you should not pay more than $1500.

Not true. Bespoke just means the cutter cuts a paper pattern for you you rather than them using a standard block adjusted to your measurements(MTM). AFAIK WW chan and other HK firms do make a paper pattern for you and they are "Made in Asia"

To the OP: If you were actually able to bargain with a tailor to take off $1000 and he agreed, i would probably walk away.

Brendon · Jun 8, 2012

Hi Pippo NYC
This may sound old hat. If you want a lifelong relationship with the tailor pay the mans price. making a suit is an intensive exercise and general retailers will work off higher margins for suits that will never have the remotest chance of fitting.
Surely you can find a tailor and cutter who make locally, nothing like eyes on the garment.
I think a referral is always the best way to go with a tailor, ie if you know someone else that also goes and have a look at what they have and if you like it. All tailors have a different cut philosophy.
As for the suggested cloth yields, without knowing your chest waist and hip, pleats, cuffs, vents D/B S/B etc 3.4 metres should cover it. As for Amadeus by Dormeuil, there are much nicer cloths in that price bracket. Dormeuil Amadeus used to be a super 100's in the mid 1990's onwards and now it is not ...despite some rather unsubstantiated claims that it is a super 120 this is the last cloth I would choose in the category..Always look for a cloth that is 2 ply in both the warp and weft, ie much stronger and makes up better. Most reputable English mills will specify this. a good English cloth will wholesale cut length from GBPounds 28 for a super 100's to say 39 GBP for a 120's to say 59GBP for a super 150's plus freight and taxes. Then add shops margin. Making 80 hrs.
Remember if a tailor quotes on 4 metres of cloth then the next time you see him, He will probably be wearing a waistcoat matching that of your new suit from the leftover cloth or mungo as it is called
good luck

msulinski · Jun 8, 2012

Brendon said:
Hi Pippo NYC
This may sound old hat. If you want a lifelong relationship with the tailor pay the mans price. making a suit is an intensive exercise and general retailers will work off higher margins for suits that will never have the remotest chance of fitting.
Surely you can find a tailor and cutter who make locally, nothing like eyes on the garment.
I think a referral is always the best way to go with a tailor, ie if you know someone else that also goes and have a look at what they have and if you like it. All tailors have a different cut philosophy.
As for the suggested cloth yields, without knowing your chest waist and hip, pleats, cuffs, vents D/B S/B etc 3.4 metres should cover it. As for Amadeus by Dormeuil, there are much nicer cloths in that price bracket. Dormeuil Amadeus used to be a super 100's in the mid 1990's onwards and now it is not ...despite some rather unsubstantiated claims that it is a super 120 this is the last cloth I would choose in the category..Always look for a cloth that is 2 ply in both the warp and weft, ie much stronger and makes up better. Most reputable English mills will specify this. a good English cloth will wholesale cut length from GBPounds 28 for a super 100's to say 39 GBP for a 120's to say 59GBP for a super 150's plus freight and taxes. Then add shops margin. Making 80 hrs.
Remember if a tailor quotes on 4 metres of cloth then the next time you see him, He will probably be wearing a waistcoat matching that of your new suit from the leftover cloth or mungo as it is called
good luck

What about asking him for the extra cloth left over? That way, you can hang on to it for repairs and such.

Verniza · Jun 8, 2012

I wouldn't blow 3k on a tailor who outsources his work. Where is his tailoring pride?

Sanguis Mortuum · Jun 8, 2012

Verniza said:
I wouldn't blow 3k on a tailor who outsources his work. Where is his tailoring pride?

Many/most good tailors outsource some part of the making up (even though most outsource to local tailors rather than overseas). Not many tailoring houses have their own workshop where every step is performed by tailors on their permanent payroll.

Shirtmaven · Jun 8, 2012

3.75 yards is plenty for a basic suit. you will need 1/4 yard more for a plaid (GBR as usual you are wrong!)

offer to pay the tailor in cash. should also avoid sales tax..

since i do not know who the tailor is, i doubt that a pattern is actually being drafted in the usa and then sent to HK/china. Unless the tailor has a cad program.

I also doubt that you will receive a basted fitting. too expensive shipping garments back and forth.

you might have a fitting with unfinished sleeves and no buttonholes.

I have seen fantastic work coming out of China but $3000 does seem a bit high even with the Dormeuil fabric and bemberg lining.

i have seen garments from Ercole and chan. both do an excellent job for less.

Eustace Tilley · Jun 8, 2012

I think all you guys are missing the broader point here - its not about the definition of bespoke, or what portion of the work is outsourced. If this 'tailor' was cutting the pattern on site, outsourcing the basting / tailoring overseas, and truly skilled to properly conduct fittings, it wouldn't be that bad (although, better options remain in NYC for $3K).

However, by the OPs description, this guy doesn't sound like a tailor, but rather a salesman of some sort - the pattern is probably developed by a local CAD system and then sent overseas for manufacture. If that is the case (and I suspect it is), $3K is ridiculous.

Despos · Jun 8, 2012

PiPPo NYC said:
Hi everyone,

Although I have been following the forum for a while, this is my first post. The question I have is the following. I am having my first bespoke suite made here in NYC. The cloth I selected is a Dormeuil Amadeus. I am 6’ 2” and weight 175 lbs. Assuming that I would need 3.5 meters of cloth, which probably retails for $150 per meter ($450) plus $50 for Bemberg lining, horn buttons & other materials, it would yield $500 in raw costs for the tailor. He wants to charge me $3,000. He said that the patterns would be designed in NY, but assembly made overseas (which I think is a marketing word for China). Construction of a bespoken suit requires 80 hours which tells me that they charge $30 per hour for something that is mainly made in China.

I think that the mark-up is too much. I was planning to bargain him down to $2,500. Am I too aggressive?

In any event I have to investigate more because I do not understand how I can get a basted fitting if assembly is made overseas.

Thanks a lot

Do you think you will like and appreciate the suit more by spending 2500. than 3000? It's the same suit and you won't like it any more at 2500. if it doesn't fit or doesn't have the look you want. Don't know the exact way this will be made but it sounds like you will receive a very generic styled and constructed suit. In your investigation, seek out others in the price range and learn their methods and look at finished product to discern if they make something in the style and silhouette you want to have. If your original person has a superior pattern, cutting system and understands how to fit you, 3000. may be a good value. Key thing having clothes made in this method is to work with a great fitter with an eye to know your fit issues. The third party doing the work only has the information provided to them to work with. You have a handful of local options in NY and if you add traveling tailors, even more. Hopefully you are looking for a long term relationship with someone to make your clothes. Work with someone you can communicate with and trust.

80 hours is sometimes needed for bench work. You won't get that in China. You are getting something mass produced. Maybe 15 hours, tops. Just maybe. A Brioni suit is made in 19 hours.

patrickBOOTH said:
Welcome to NYC, enjoy your stay.

PB you should have something like Senior Ambassador Member Status here. You know how to reach out and make a person feel at home on the interwebz!

TheTukker · Jun 8, 2012

I think I, and some others here too, may know which tailor is being discussed here. That said, invaluable advice from Despos here:

Despos said:
Do you think you will like and appreciate the suit more by spending 2500. than 3000? It's the same suit and you won't like it any more at 2500. if it doesn't fit or doesn't have the look you want. Don't know the exact way this will be made but it sounds like you will receive a very generic styled and constructed suit. In your investigation, seek out others in the price range and learn their methods and look at finished product to discern if they make something in the style and silhouette you want to have. If your original person has a superior pattern, cutting system and understands how to fit you, 3000. may be a good value. Key thing having clothes made in this method is to work with a great fitter with an eye to know your fit issues. The third party doing the work only has the information provided to them to work with. You have a handful of local options in NY and if you add traveling tailors, even more. Hopefully you are looking for a long term relationship with someone to make your clothes. Work with someone you can communicate with and trust.
80 hours is sometimes needed for bench work. You won't get that in China. You are getting something mass produced. Maybe 15 hours, tops. Just maybe. A Brioni suit is made in 19 hours.
....

Despos · Jun 8, 2012

TheTukker said:
I think I, and some others here too, may know which tailor is being discussed here. That said, invaluable advice from Despos here:

Thank you. Not to contradict you but I would value this at 2 cents.

Brendon · Jun 8, 2012

I agree with Sanguis M .Outsourcing has been done for a very long time. The senior chap I work with used to work in a room of 20 tailors in a Savile Row basement in London and to a man, they all had a different way of making a suit. However the cutter was just upstairs or just down the road for amendments to be made to the garment. Some were tidy some were not with their work. Some were good at pressing off ( very important) The important thing was the cutter could eyeball the suit with the tailor. The Tailor could blame the cutter and the cutter blame the tailor and seen as the cutter was in charge and the tailor on piecework payment the cutter would win. The point is being in close proximity is beneficial to the process. Tailors worked hard and often drank. The worst thing was if a tailor took advance payment on your suit from the boss before finished, it then became a "dead job" and the finishing was sure to be rushed. Did this matter, probably not because the cut ...the tailoring philosophy is the most important thing. It is how your suit is perceived at 5 yards plus is where a bespoke suit that is cut straight will pay off. In Savile Row your 65 hours will not necessarily get a beautifully finished coat inside but you are sure to get a fairly straight cut with a west end tailor. Bemberg lining, lots of lining is called this and some is not that good. Cupro Bemberg is the go and wholesales for your Bespoke Math equation at around 8 Euro a metre, or cupro silk if you are dead flash at 12 Euro metre.
It is irrelevant how long the suit takes to make. 19 hours of Brioni will give a finish that all tailors will aspire to, they are beautifully made suits that will never fit the individual. If a tailor takes 80 hours and the cut is just ho hum then the tailor might as well take 100 hrs. The cut the cut the cut.
When you find the right cut for you, to repeat what I stated earlier " If you want a lifelong relationship with the tailor, pay the mans price"
As a Bespoke Cutter Tailor only about half of my customers ask the price, the other half are the ones I will hopefully keep for life
Why not try that Popradi bloke, he at least looks like the real deal and one suit I saw on you tube looked like a straight cut. I think he is in canada but travels to NY.
good luck
Brendon

TheTukker · Jun 8, 2012

Despos said:
Thank you. Not to contradict you but I would value this at 2 cents.

Actually, you are, so allow me to re-emphasize the bit that I think has significant value. Hopefully, this is what most people invest in when they go the bespoke route:

Despos said:
...
Hopefully you are looking for a long term relationship with someone to make your clothes. Work with someone you can communicate with and trust....

Simon at Elite · Jun 8, 2012

Despos said:
80 hours is sometimes needed for bench work. You won't get that in China. You are getting something mass produced. Maybe 15 hours, tops.

That's not true. In fact in Asia you are more than likely to have more time spent making your suit than if it was made in NYC.

I have blogged about the rise of outsourcing bespoke tailoring to Asia

http://bit.ly/IZT10m

It's far more common than you may think

bespoke math

Distinguished Member

Timed Out

Distinguished Member

Senior Member

Distinguished Member

Senior Member

Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member

Timed Out

Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member

Senior Member

Distinguished Member

Affiliate Vendor

Classic Menswear Featured products

FEATURED PRODUCTS

Similar threads

Featured Sponsor

Definitely full canvas only

Half canvas is fine

Really don't care

Depends on fabric

Depends on price

Forum Sponsors

Forum statistics

FOLLOW STYLEFORUM ON: