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Question about a navy grenadine tie - Page 2

post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesmith View Post

I understand that you like Drake's and I wasn't attacking you. 

There is another thread on the go at the moment about a guy that wants to go into the tie business and asked what price he should sell them at, he doesn't realize half the things that he has to factor into that cost. 

I am 100% sure that Drake's pays far more in bills and manpower than Hober, London is incredibly expensive, especially where Drake's is located and as I said before Panta and Vanda aren't cheap options either. 


(I could be talking rubbish now, but IMHO, luxury brands charge what they do for exclusivity, in certain cases they could cost the same amount to produce as other manufacturers but they charge more to establish their brand as targeting a certain clientele. To call your brand luxury and charge $15 a tie, no-one will take you seriously.)


Edit: If F. Corbera wanted he could transform that "wut?" into a informative post that would blow me out of the water, until he does, I'll take that as a compliment! Thanks!

Absolutely - nothing wrong with this. They simply have a client base and business model which allows them to make maximum profits from smaller quantities of business than others might. Margins are indeed often higher on luxury goods - the buyer is paying for the assurance that they will not encounter others in their social circle with items of an identical nature to theirs. Thus assuring their own superiority.

More markup? So much the better!!!!! After all - it's a small price to pay in order to acheive 'world domination'. (Or something like that.)
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesmith View Post

While I haven't had the privilege of handling Hober, Panta & Vanda, I am tired of people calling Drake's a rip-off shop. There are far more expensive ties out there than Drake's (Isaia, Kiton, Ricci, Brioni to name a few).

Also, Hober operates out of the far east where everything is considerably cheaper, even though he always protests otherwise. Panta ain't so cheap. Vanda is a tiny operation and ain't so cheap either.

Drake's has plenty of options that aren't offered by any other tie manufacturer. (Shantung, novelty pocket squares etc...)


DaveSmith,


I am not sure what you are thinking about but no one in this thread has said anything bad about Drakes and yes, they are expensive which is very normal for retail stores.

As for our operating costs - very softly, gently and politely you are simply not correct.

First, we are not in the Far East, we are in Thailand which is in South East Asia. Although labor costs are lower here than in the West, they are fast rising under new laws and training costs here are higher than in America for a variety of reasons. Luxury businesses in Thailand very often have Expat managment which is more expensive than it would be in the US.

Second, as I have mentioned before Sam Hober is an American owned, operated and managed business with American salaries and taxes paid.

Our raw material costs are higher than those for tie makers in England or Italy. Our silk prices have gone up and up over the last 5 years since we moved to Thailand yet we have not raised our tie prices and instead have actually lowered some prices.

Our transportation and shipping costs are higher.

Gasoline and car costs are higher here.

We have very few cost savings here. Car and computer companies in Thailand have large factories with a small number of expat managers and they do have large cost savings but not small workshops like ours.

I could go on but I hope that you are starting to see the facts. Please feel free to email me if you do not understand and I will be happy to talk to you.

So in summary, your statement: "Hober operates out of the far east where everything is considerably cheaper,..." is false and misleading and I would appreciate it you would have the courtesy to check your facts before posting, Thailand is not China.

I can say that fruits and vegetables are much lower in cost here and amazingly fresh and flavorful. Orchids which I love are also very inexpensive here.

While I also have not had the chance of wearing a Vanda tie I can tell you that I would be happy to do so as from what I can see they take pride in making by hand their ties in their own small workshop and there are so few of those left - it is great to encourage them. Hopefully, one day I will visit Singapore and have a chance to meet them. (Also Singapore labor costs are quite high so their ties are not cheap to make)

Maybe we will sit in Raffles wearing Vanda ties and have lunch...
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyasih View Post

Now we can go back to assisting the OP-sorry to thread jack.

 

This.

 

@Hober - Your responses are always AWESOME! It is amazing you take the time. I am not worthy of it. Sounds like you are a bad business man to me in that case! That or you really like providing amazing ties at an even better price. (I think it is the later.)

post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesmith View Post

This.

@Hober - Your responses are always AWESOME! It is amazing you take the time. I am not worthy of it. Sounds like you are a bad business man to me in that case! That or you really like providing amazing ties at an even better price. (I think it is the later.)

DaveSmith,

I am easygoing - all is well.

I am a long term businessman and I do plan on returning to more mulberry/silk farming which with a blend of Western technology and Thai tradition hopefully will give us a raw material advantage for silk down the road.

We take great pride in what we do so a small profit margin is OK for us.

Now back to our previously scheduled program....,
post #20 of 28
DaveSmith, really?? No need to highlight my thread jack statement, it was you and others who threw your comments into my response, without really speaking to the OP's question, which I did. That, I took as an attack, and I'm off my meds, so I am sensitive smile.gif
Edited by gyasih - 5/23/12 at 8:39pm
post #21 of 28

An internet problem has been highlighted here. It is sometimes hard to express yourself.

 

I was expressing my apologies about jacking the thread. You just got there first and therefore I jumped on the bandwagon.

 

I'll send you a free pocket square to make you feel better! haha.

post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpooPoker View Post

lurker[1].gif
*buuuurp*
post #23 of 28
I've worn ties from most of the brands/makers mentioned in this thread and I have to say that I always end up wearing my Drakes more than any of the others. They feel solid and well made, tend to tie a great knot and drape beautifully. One of the big advantages with ties from Sam Hober is that you can fully customise them, but this is also now possible with Drakes ties (i.e. the bespoke section on the Drakes website allows you to order ties (including navy grenadine) to your preferred width and length).
post #24 of 28
I missed this thread last week while away on Holidays and we have been mentioned so i'll throw my 2 cents in.

Firstly I'll respectfully disagree with David that all RTW ties will be of lesser quality than a bespoke tie. Most will sure, but there are so many variants in fabric, construction etc that's it's really comparing apples to oranges. A lot of people will buy a Drakes tie because it's Drakes for example, so there is the element of the brand that drives their prices up but that doesn't really apply to us for example.

I can only speak of my own ties in regards to the construction as I've not pulled the others mentioned apart (though do own both Hober and Drakes). In my case, I sell my Italian 7 folds (what David would call a 6 fold) which are handmade in Naples and self tipped for $99.95 and I'll be doing a range of un-tipped ones with hand-rolled edges for only $109.95 AUD in August/September. But I can keep my prices lower and still enjoy a half decent profit margin because I'm a small business or "Micro Brand" as someone else called us with lower overheads, which I'm completely comfortable with. But I can tell you my construction is top notch because I look at them all day everyday.

At the end of the day you just have to weigh up the pluses and minuses. Obviously with Bespoke you have a longer lead time, just like with bespoke clothes where as the RTW carry the stock in hand ready to send out quickly, so if you can find what you want in RTW then is there a point with going bespoke? Well you get to choose the length, width plus all the other things David is so good with. But that's up to the individual to decide I guess.

And I also think that it's worth supporting the vendors that support the forum with their own cash, whomever you choose to go with. Before I started the business I'd bought and continue to buy off a lot of the other affiliates, including ehaberdasher, panta, Kent Wang, Malford, AFPOS, Howard Yount, the Armoury etc etc. It's a great community we have here.

Regards,
Jason
post #25 of 28
Suggestions for a more affordable, but decent quality navy grenadine tie? I can't spend that much =/
post #26 of 28
Kent Wang?
post #27 of 28
I always figured that, for the retail price of a KW, you may as well go for a Hober and get the your exact dimensions/length. I've got a KW 8cm tip, but it's skinny at the knot - doesn't dimple that easily. However, it's still quality lining, so it will dimple with a little care, and drapes well. Now, Charles Tyrwhitt grenadines, on the other hand, need to be relined after you pull them out of the cellophane - stiff and lifeless.

So getting back to the OP's original question, if it has to be a workhorse tie and you have particular requirements, custom is the way to go.
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerostyle View Post

Suggestions for a more affordable, but decent quality navy grenadine tie? I can't spend that much =/

zerostyle,

I have heard Chipp2s grenadines described as a good value, here is a review that was mailed to me one year ago:


"In one of the forums someone had asked about the Chipp2 Grenadine ties.

If you recall I ordered a dark red and bright blue from you and I own several of the Chipp2 grenadines. The Chipp2 grenadines are all garza fina and appear to be from a nice reputable mill.

I think there is slightly less sheen than your ties so they don't look as expensive.

The construction, however, is quite different. The Chipp2 ties are not self tipped and the back is lined with a black almost polyester like fabric. The lining also seems a little lighter and not sure if it is pure wool. There is no question that your ties are more impressive, but the Chipp2 ties are only $40 so some decent value compared to other off the rack grenadines. If I had to draw a comparison would probably say they are similar to J. Press ties."


The price might be higher this year give them a call and ask for swatches.



Jason,


"Firstly I'll respectfully disagree with David that all RTW ties will be of lesser quality than a bespoke tie. Most will sure, but there are so many variants in fabric, construction etc that's it's really comparing apples to oranges."

And very politely and respectfully I will hold steady in my agreement with the school of thought that handmade custom ties will be better in terms of attention to small details than ready made ties. Now will there be some clothing made by low end/inexperienced tie makers that are not as good as some ready-made clothing - certainly yes.

My comments about bespoke/custom ties and clothes are directed towards the best at what they do. As for hand made ties from Naples they can make beautiful ties if they slow down and take great care in what they do but typically the tie making contractors operate at very fast speeds and their quality control is not consistent. You really need to be there to keep an eye on them nothing else will give you the quality control that you need. I have never heard a tie maker disagree with my observations and this includes mass market tie makers.

I once had "V." a tie making company from the Naples area send me in the mail unsolicited samples in the hopes of us buying from them the quality was not even close to acceptable.

Another time the younger son of a wool fabric company in the north of Italy whom we were friendly with tried to get us to sell his ties. He sent us samples and while better than the ties made in Naples still had small problems that those in the ready made tie business tend to not be concerned about.

So I wish you the best of luck with your business but I am 100% certain that 99 percent of the time a bespoke/custom made tie will be better both in the construction and measurements. It is natural as a bespoke tie takes on average 2 to 4 times as long to make as a tie built under contract. The extra time comes partially from making patterns but also from paying attention to the smallest details. Note, luxury fabrics are available for both ready-made and bespoke ties.


rs232,


Thank you for your kind words.

I can understand the purchase of a ready-made tie if it is the design and color that catch your eye and not available at a similar price-point in a custom version.

Or if the tie must be shipped that day for a wedding.

When all is going smoothly for us we average 5 days to make an order, but it will be hard for us to get much quicker than that.

Dib,


"One of the big advantages with ties from Sam Hober is that you can fully customise them, but this is also now possible with Drakes ties (i.e. the bespoke section on the Drakes website allows you to order ties (including navy grenadine) to your preferred width and length)."

Thank you for thinking us, although I am confused by your comment about Drakes as made-to-measure ties are basically limited to fabric, length and width choices which is what I saw a while back when I looked at the Drakes site. Maybe they have expanded their options.

A bespoke/custom made tie is more complex: You first talk with your tie maker for as long as is needed then you have many construction options. the time that is required to customize your tie and keep track of your preferences for future orders is a big factor in the ties cost.
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