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Soccer • Football • Voetbal • Fútbol • Calcio • Futebol - 2012-2013 Thread (Including EURO2012) - Page 180

post #2686 of 4307

I admit in some clubs in madrid you will see kids raising their right arms and singing about how 1592 the sun never set on the spanish empire.

post #2687 of 4307
This thread is actually one of the best on SF because banter can normally fly without getting nasty..

We have to keep it this way because at the end of the day we all love football...

I'm also a great rugby union fan and we are told very young to respect our opponents...

Rivalry yes , hatred no or we will finish like the CEsspool...

I don't understand booing a national anthem...

It will have been a stronger image to keep silent or turn your back when it is sung...

There is a lot of racism north/south, economical and political lines in most leagues or thge same towns.

In germany ,Bayern Munchen is hated. PSG and Marseilles , Barca and Real , Liverpool and Manchester, Galatasaray Fenerbace and so on..

If you put on top of that religious reasons ..ffffuuuu.gif
post #2688 of 4307
post #2689 of 4307
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

my friend was a separatists ! she hated the nat'l team too haha...i was in barca train station and one ticket counter agent started responding in catalan to some speaker of castellano, he was getting so angry and threatened to call to the police on her saying "this is spain spaek spanish!!!" she kept trollign him, she said nope this is catalunya teacha.gif
i just like calling madridistas that for fun
and because

Oh my God...

Franco was definitively not a striker..
post #2690 of 4307
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post

Franco was definitively not a striker..

duh ... he was a midfield general bigstar[1].gif
post #2691 of 4307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkRanger View Post

No, but they are the ones who spew their Lega Nord bullshit loader than others. Sounds to me that your defending racism here. I've never been prouder than in the Cup final when the Partenopei jeered the Italian National Anthem to the point it was barely audible, and of course we were fined heavily, but Juve fans sing and chant all sorts of anti Southern-crap and get nothing...I also think that ElArg was being sarcastic with his comments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton View Post

NYR is a City fan and I am a United fan but we are in complete agreement on the racism issue. The football organizations do not take this issue serious enough. I am not going to pin the term "racist" on a particular set of fans--I have already pointed out that I believe each team has their bad actors. That said, I am not going to keep my opinion to myself here about how I feel on the issue. If the mods don't like me making a simple statement that I believe the racism ruins the game then they can ban me.

I was being facetious, NYR - thanks for affirming that. Didn't think anyone would take that seriously. Especially with the use of "teh" and other obviously misspelled words so as to suggest jest...

I normally feel well-versed in at least understanding the politics behind the basics of footballing rivalries. Italy has flown under my radar because of my lack of knowledge of "the culture." Anyone want to break this clip down for me as to why Napoli in general feels so wronged by the Italian government, what that stems from, history of the region and unification, etc?

It's an impressive clip though - I think I'd be the last one to say they should be chastised, fined or whatever, inasmuch as footballing grounds have long been the only place where extreme nationalistic feelings have been allowed w/o violent suppression (ie throughout Europe in the 20s, 30s, 40s, and all throughout the eastern bloc during the Cold War, let alone South America, Spain, etc. where I have more experience).... IMO the minute they lose their right to believe as they do is when it starts infringing the rights of others. As historically messy as the one-arm salute may be now, you can stand there and look fascist all you want; the moment you in some way physically harm another b/c of your beliefs is where the line is drawn and all bets are off.

(Preparing for blowback)

EDIT:

It should be noted that in general I don't support disrespect of national anthems, etc. I think that the Catalán dispute in Spain is generally blown out of proportion. I dislike when people disrespect the national anthem in various US sports. But while not agreeing with their views, claims to separatism, whatever - I think a person has every right to express their opinion, however charged or wrong it may be.

Eager for CL today. Hoping its the standard walk-in-the-park for Madrid today.
post #2692 of 4307
Lasbar- Rugby and Football are just so black and white. I played rugby in college and in a men's club for awhile. It's just not the same.

What's the saying again-

Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen and soccer is a gentleman's game played by hooligans.
post #2693 of 4307
El Argentino - your question re: history of southern grievances


That is a big topic but a real short answer is it is not just Naples but the entire south of Italy in general. To start when the country unified, the protectionist measures by southern monarchies was dismantled which hurt Neopolitan industries the most. Once that shifted to northern cities like Torino & Milano the new centralized government re adopted protectionist measures ensuring the south could not catch up again as it locked down growth to the newly established northern industries.

That and via mainstream media it appeared that a well orchestrated demonizing of southerners as lazy took hold over the decades. The term "terroni" being cast towards southerners. The media being controlled by northerners for the most part.

Plus centralized state raised taxes which was easier to absorb where the economy was stronger (the north) and it spiraled from there.

Pre unification the south was not quite as well off as some would lead you to believe but it was sustainable and nothing like the disaster that unfolded in the 50s and 60s. You will see that is the time of the biggest migration to American, Canada and elsewhere. Which is why you see North American Italians are so disproportionately from the south.

Hope I did that justice.
post #2694 of 4307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauro View Post

Lasbar- Rugby and Football are just so black and white. I played rugby in college and in a men's club for awhile. It's just not the same.
What's the saying again-
Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen and soccer is a gentleman's game played by hooligans.

vice versa
post #2695 of 4307
I don't think so, Roma. Nice try.
post #2696 of 4307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauro View Post

I don't think so, Roma. Nice try.

Nice try what? You asked what the saying was - I rememebered it the other way around.

Maybe neither is correct?

Other forms of the endless variants include: “Soccer is a gentleman’s game played by thugs. Rugby league is a thug’s game played by thugs. Rugby Union is a thug’s game played by gentlemen.”

Toss in “Gaelic football is a game for hooligans played by hooligans,” “Cricket is a game for gentlemen played by gentlemen” and one for Walter Camp and American football by Henry Blaha (Blaha was apparently Australian?): “Rugby is a beastly game played by gentlemen. Soccer is a gentleman’s game played by beasts. Football is a beastly game played by beasts.”

Seeking to find the original quote that set in train these cross code barbs, and hoping to read it in its original context, I set out on a search.

What did I find? Just who first quipped “football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans, and rugby is a hooligans’ game played by gentlemen”?

Some sources pointed to 19th century Irish playright, Oscar Wilde. I found he had made a quote about rugby, but it wasn’t the one I was looking for. Wilde said: “Rugby is a good occasion for keeping thirty bullies far from the centre of the city.”

English novelist George Orwell is often cited by rugby union writers as comparing a match under the 15-man code as the equivalent of “war minus the shooting.” Orwell’s quote is interesting, but doesn’t specifically refer to rugby at all, nor is it the “hooligans game” line that I was after: “Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence: in other words it is war minus the shooting.”

Another name put forward as the possible source is Rudyard Kipling, English poet and author of a century ago. In the midst of the Boer War, Kipling wrote: “Then ye returned to your trinkets; then ye contented your souls, With the flannelled fools at the wicket, or the muddied oafs at the goals.”

William Percy “Tottie” Carpmael, founder of the Barbarian FC in 1890, was suggested. The connection here was probably based on the Barbarians rugby club having a motto, written by Walter Carey: “Rugby football is a game for gentlemen of all classes, but for no bad sportsman of any class.”

Turning to the “Oxford Dictionary of Quotations,” the Penguin equivalent, and “Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable,” all came up empty as to the source of the “gentleman’s game played by hooligans” quote.

A reference on the internet pointed to a book called “The Wonderful World of Rugby” by Jon Clarke as the originator. However, such a book could not be found, nor any evidence of it ever having been published.

The RFU’s “Museum of Rugby” mounted a search of their extensive archive to answer my question, but nothing came to light there either.

The word “hooligan” doesn’t appear to have come into common use until the very late 1890s, suggesting that the quote was born in the 20th century and not earlier.

After trawling through library archives of newspapers, the earliest use of the quote I could find was in 1953. In London’s “The Times” I came across an article called “The Evolution of Football” [The Times, Friday, January 30, 1953; pg. 10] discussing the various forms of football, which goes on to say:

“….a large family – Association, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Gaelic football, American football, and Australian Rules. Each clearly has its merits and may safely be left to its adherents, but one cannot refrain from repeating the story of a certain Chancellor of Cambridge University (confessing complete ignorance of all football), who was asked to sum up a debate on Association and Rugby. “It is clear,” he said, “that one is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans; the other a hooligan’s game played by gentlemen.”

It would seem that this appearance of the quote in “The Times” was the source which popularised it around the rugby and soccer playing world.

The Chancellor appears to be having an each-way bet. Being ignorant of all football, all the debate proved to him was that the adherents of each code will always speak from their own biased point of view.

The popular form of the quote widely used today is almost certainly wrong, and the original quote didn’t “pigeon hole” one game or the other when it came to gentlemen and hooligans.

“It is clear that one is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans; the other a hooligan’s game played by gentlemen.”
Chancellor of Cambridge University,
date unknown (pre 1953)
post #2697 of 4307
Good sleuthing, Watson.
post #2698 of 4307
Quote:
Originally Posted by romafan View Post

Nice try what? You asked what the saying was - I rememebered it the other way around.
Maybe neither is correct?
Other forms of the endless variants include: “Soccer is a gentleman’s game played by thugs. Rugby league is a thug’s game played by thugs. Rugby Union is a thug’s game played by gentlemen.”
Toss in “Gaelic football is a game for hooligans played by hooligans,” “Cricket is a game for gentlemen played by gentlemen” and one for Walter Camp and American football by Henry Blaha (Blaha was apparently Australian?): “Rugby is a beastly game played by gentlemen. Soccer is a gentleman’s game played by beasts. Football is a beastly game played by beasts.”
Seeking to find the original quote that set in train these cross code barbs, and hoping to read it in its original context, I set out on a search.
What did I find? Just who first quipped “football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans, and rugby is a hooligans’ game played by gentlemen”?
Some sources pointed to 19th century Irish playright, Oscar Wilde. I found he had made a quote about rugby, but it wasn’t the one I was looking for. Wilde said: “Rugby is a good occasion for keeping thirty bullies far from the centre of the city.”
English novelist George Orwell is often cited by rugby union writers as comparing a match under the 15-man code as the equivalent of “war minus the shooting.” Orwell’s quote is interesting, but doesn’t specifically refer to rugby at all, nor is it the “hooligans game” line that I was after: “Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence: in other words it is war minus the shooting.”
Another name put forward as the possible source is Rudyard Kipling, English poet and author of a century ago. In the midst of the Boer War, Kipling wrote: “Then ye returned to your trinkets; then ye contented your souls, With the flannelled fools at the wicket, or the muddied oafs at the goals.”
William Percy “Tottie” Carpmael, founder of the Barbarian FC in 1890, was suggested. The connection here was probably based on the Barbarians rugby club having a motto, written by Walter Carey: “Rugby football is a game for gentlemen of all classes, but for no bad sportsman of any class.”
Turning to the “Oxford Dictionary of Quotations,” the Penguin equivalent, and “Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable,” all came up empty as to the source of the “gentleman’s game played by hooligans” quote.
A reference on the internet pointed to a book called “The Wonderful World of Rugby” by Jon Clarke as the originator. However, such a book could not be found, nor any evidence of it ever having been published.
The RFU’s “Museum of Rugby” mounted a search of their extensive archive to answer my question, but nothing came to light there either.
The word “hooligan” doesn’t appear to have come into common use until the very late 1890s, suggesting that the quote was born in the 20th century and not earlier.
After trawling through library archives of newspapers, the earliest use of the quote I could find was in 1953. In London’s “The Times” I came across an article called “The Evolution of Football” [The Times, Friday, January 30, 1953; pg. 10] discussing the various forms of football, which goes on to say:
“….a large family – Association, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Gaelic football, American football, and Australian Rules. Each clearly has its merits and may safely be left to its adherents, but one cannot refrain from repeating the story of a certain Chancellor of Cambridge University (confessing complete ignorance of all football), who was asked to sum up a debate on Association and Rugby. “It is clear,” he said, “that one is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans; the other a hooligan’s game played by gentlemen.”
It would seem that this appearance of the quote in “The Times” was the source which popularised it around the rugby and soccer playing world.
The Chancellor appears to be having an each-way bet. Being ignorant of all football, all the debate proved to him was that the adherents of each code will always speak from their own biased point of view.
The popular form of the quote widely used today is almost certainly wrong, and the original quote didn’t “pigeon hole” one game or the other when it came to gentlemen and hooligans.
“It is clear that one is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans; the other a hooligan’s game played by gentlemen.”
Chancellor of Cambridge University,
date unknown (pre 1953)


Impressive essay..icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
post #2699 of 4307
It's a talent I certainly don't posses.
post #2700 of 4307
me neither - forgot " & "
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