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1 in 2 new graduates are jobless or underemployed - Page 4

post #46 of 127
We are in school for 13 years and after graduating we are qualified for minimum wage jobs. We go to university for 4 years and we are qualified for much, much more. It seems unbalanced and I wish the education system came up with a way to better utilize those years of our lives. I can confidently say I don't remember 90% of the stuff I learned in school except reading, writing, and math nor do I even remember most of the classes I took. Not that I didn't pay attention (I had good grades) I just feel they weren't important enough for my brain to hold onto that knowledge.
post #47 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoozah View Post

We are in school for 13 years and after graduating we are qualified for minimum wage jobs. We go to university for 4 years and we are qualified for much, much more. It seems unbalanced and I wish the education system came up with a way to better utilize those years of our lives. I can confidently say I don't remember 90% of the stuff I learned in school except reading, writing, and math nor do I even remember most of the classes I took. Not that I didn't pay attention (I had good grades) I just feel they weren't important enough for my brain to hold onto that knowledge.

That's because high school is meant as preparation for university. If you wanted to be qualified for something you would have gone to a trade school or taken an apprenticeship after your compulsory education to age 16 was finished.

There are some guys who are in the trades who, no joke, are making as much as an investment banking analyst gets at a bulge bracket at the same age. And they will keep making good coin if they're good at what they do.
post #48 of 127
This is going to sound chauvinistic and condescending, but in general I think there are too many university graduates these days attracted to dodgy institutions handing out specialized degrees that lead you to nowhere. For example, I've heard of Computer Engineering and Computer Science but what is Software Engineering? Or my cousin graduated with a degree in Fashion Marketing - not Fashion (which is dubious at best), not Marketing, but Fashion Marketing.

Universities are in a bind and more enrollment increases revenue. They absolutely do not have society's interest at heart never mind the student's. I remember going to a career counsellor and they advocated a general arts degree (my major was a second choice from a science that I applied to be in but got rejected), and if I could not find a job after graduating to come back and upgrade.

Governments are also complicit in handing out more grants, scholarships and bursaries because they think it will give the poor an opportunity to advance. And with online univerisities, community colleges that turn into universities, it's no wonder there is a glut of new graduates without proper work.

I can't seem to find the article but I read somewhere the percentage of population graduating with at least a bachelors degree was higher now than in the 1950s, 60s, whenever (forget the exact years). The increase was approximately the same percentage of people who can't find proper employment today i.e. the ones working at an Avis counter thinking an MA or doctorate will help them.
post #49 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post

This is going to sound chauvinistic and condescending, but in general I think there are too many university graduates these days attracted to dodgy institutions handing out specialized degrees that lead you to nowhere. For example, I've heard of Computer Engineering and Computer Science but what is Software Engineering? Or my cousin graduated with a degree in Fashion Marketing - not Fashion (which is dubious at best), not Marketing, but Fashion Marketing.
Universities are in a bind and more enrollment increases revenue. They absolutely do not have society's interest at heart never mind the student's. I remember going to a career counsellor and they advocated a general arts degree (my major was a second choice from a science that I applied to be in but got rejected), and if I could not find a job after graduating to come back and upgrade.
Governments are also complicit in handing out more grants, scholarships and bursaries because they think it will give the poor an opportunity to advance. And with online univerisities, community colleges that turn into universities, it's no wonder there is a glut of new graduates without proper work.
I can't seem to find the article but I read somewhere the percentage of population graduating with at least a bachelors degree was higher now than in the 1950s, 60s, whenever (forget the exact years). The increase was approximately the same percentage of people who can't find proper employment today i.e. the ones working at an Avis counter thinking an MA or doctorate will help them.

Other than your comment about software engineering (which is actually a very hard skills based field) the rest of your post is largely cogent.

The problem we are facing is that people conflate a tertiary education with the intelligence needed to acquire well-paying positions. In the past, simply being able to graduate from a bachelors program was testament to your intelligence. Nowadays, you do not necessarily have to be intelligent to pass your degree.

This is reflected in the higher value placed in graduate school, where the higher barriers to entry provide an indicator to employers about how hard a candidate has worked in the past to acquire knowledge.
post #50 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereis View Post

This is reflected in the higher value placed in graduate school, where the higher barriers to entry provide an indicator to employers about how hard a candidate has worked in the past to acquire knowledge.

Is this always true? I was talking to a colleague and he mentioned that employers know that some M.S./M.A. degrees are less than the respective B.S./B.A. degrees from the same school since the schools just use Master's students as income and that many students are accepted into the program. Schools that come to my mind are Stanford, Columbia, and USC for Master's. None of these schools are easy.
post #51 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post

For example, I've heard of Computer Engineering and Computer Science but what is Software Engineering?

Computer Engineering - engineering of the physical hardware and related software components of a computer
Computer Science - the theoretical approach required for approaching computer-based problems. Most schools require lots of theory but little application. For example, learning about the solvability of certain problems, there's not much to be gained beyond knowing "well this kind of problem has no great solution". Or even learning an algorithm does not mean you know how to actually apply it. The common misconception is Computer Science == sitting in a lab coding all day.
Software Engineering - A purely hands-on approach to solving problems with programming and how to get better. This entails things like official proposal writing, obviously requires you to have the requisite programming skills to solve the work, etc etc.
post #52 of 127
"Fashion Marketing" is Fashion Merchandising and lets you work as a buyer or in the business side of fashion.
post #53 of 127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

"Fashion Marketing" is Fashion Merchandising and lets you work as a buyer or in the business side of fashion.

Talk about a worthless degree right there (that would be my degree)...
post #54 of 127
I have a political science degree and am working on my Masters of Theological Studies. My plan is to either be an armed forces Chaplain, or work to fundraise for mission stations around the world. Expectations are low pay, high fluidity (I might be in vogue one year, the next year I'll be living under a coconut tree in a tent). But it's something I enjoy.

I worked as a political aide for a few months. I was let go in a round of budget cuts. It was a good, high stress job that paid 43k a year. I really enjoyed it. My co-workers (the ones who had degrees) were all highly trained history or polysci majors. Some of the older ladies there had no degree, and had simply worked there forever. Unfortunately, I made an enemy of one of these long service workers, and she would constantly write to my boss and say anything I'd messed up with. She quit, got a buyout of 75 grand, went to work somewhere else for 14 months then returned, to go back to her old pay grade of 70k a year.

I think the worst paid degrees are: english, history, political science and "native studies". Unless you're native, which means you can basically help yourselves to piles of free money growing on the money tree.
post #55 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadly7 View Post

Computer Engineering - engineering of the physical hardware and related software components of a computer
Computer Science - the theoretical approach required for approaching computer-based problems. Most schools require lots of theory but little application. For example, learning about the solvability of certain problems, there's not much to be gained beyond knowing "well this kind of problem has no great solution". Or even learning an algorithm does not mean you know how to actually apply it. The common misconception is Computer Science == sitting in a lab coding all day.
Software Engineering - A purely hands-on approach to solving problems with programming and how to get better. This entails things like official proposal writing, obviously requires you to have the requisite programming skills to solve the work, etc etc.

That's a good summary, and to your point, the job that you want coming out of school with a computer science degree is typically a software engineering position. Computer science as you ahev defined it is basically an academic pursuit similar to high level mathematics.

There are private research institutes (Parc, MS Research, IBM Research, etc) where you can be a computer scientist, but most of the jobs are for application.

I have lots of theories about the current employment situation, most of which can be summed up as, information technology progressed in places that people weren't even looking. When the recession hit, a lot of people got laid off and their jobs were automated. Now there is not reason to hire those positions back. Meanwhile, every company is becoming a technology company and if you can't make a computer do your bidding, then your value add is greatly reduced.

IT is a force multiplier in the white-collar workplace and you need to know how to shoot. This is why these guys are going to be the next hottest thing: http://devbootcamp.com/

I'm pimping them a lot because I dropped by their office today. They are basically taking everyone's need of retraining and monetizing it in the best way.
post #56 of 127
In these economic times, it's more important than ever to diversify your skill sets so you can go where the demand is. Nowadays, it changes so fast that even if you're studying a hot subject now, by the time you graduate, the industry could be downsizing. I know of a lot of people who are juggling side income streams just to stay afloat ...Actually it may be an advantage since employers aren't loyal these days anymore. Unless you're a top performer, they'll let you go with the first budget shortfall so it's good not to depend on one source of $$$ to eat your next meal.
post #57 of 127
i'm not going to read all the banter but did anyone ever mention that sure 1/2 new grads are jobless or bussing tables but 1/2 of them also majored in womens studies or english...
shit...
all the kids i know got placed in real jobs and making real money and going out or partying their ass off almost every night right now
i think the large segment of people who tried to cheat their way through the system by not working hard in college and partying it up in a state school every night instead of studying and developing a trade finally caught up to them
post #58 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by junior varsity View Post

i'm not going to read all the banter but did anyone ever mention that sure 1/2 new grads are jobless or bussing tables but 1/2 of them also majored in womens studies or english...
shit...
all the kids i know got placed in real jobs and making real money and going out or partying their ass off almost every night right now
i think the large segment of people who tried to cheat their way through the system by not working hard in college and partying it up in a state school every night instead of studying and developing a trade finally caught up to them

Times are tough for lots of people who didn't just fuck around. I know a lot of people in the sciences who really had to look long and hard to find jobs, and many of them aren't making nearly what they would have five years ago.
post #59 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Times are tough for lots of people who didn't just fuck around. I know a lot of people in the sciences who really had to look long and hard to find jobs, and many of them aren't making nearly what they would have five years ago.

i think the immigrants (and jews) really got it figured out...
be a doctor, lawyer, accountant or an investment banker... (law is gradually getting worse)
those are the only safe routes ...

its just all the dreamer american kids thats majoring in english, communication and whatever.. (like the kids who "wants to change the world")
math and physics are useful - only if you can utilize it and get a job being a number cruncher at an investment bank
post #60 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by junior varsity View Post

i'm not going to read all the banter but did anyone ever mention that sure 1/2 new grads are jobless or bussing tables but 1/2 of them also majored in womens studies or english...
shit...
all the kids i know got placed in real jobs and making real money and going out or partying their ass off almost every night right now
i think the large segment of people who tried to cheat their way through the system by not working hard in college and partying it up in a state school every night instead of studying and developing a trade finally caught up to them

Apart from your stupid penis envy toward anybody that went to an Ivy, what do state schools have to do with anything?
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