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Sole Welting - Page 33

post #481 of 1727
^Very interesting. So it would seem that one person's experience of his/her own shoe wear is not very generalizable.
post #482 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelonius View Post

I asked about this previously. Uric acid, malic acid, various salts, acidic peptides, human sweat is complex and differs greatly between individuals (to the extent of being able to identify them). It apparently degrades leather insoles and linings + stitching with time, and for some more rapidly than others. Some contributors said that they apply cream to the interiors to protect them. It's a problem for me to the extent that interior uppers deterioation is more of a problem than sole durability.

WTF? Are you saying that some people's sweat have so much acidity that it disintegrates shoes??? What's this? Prequel to some Marvel super hero story..

Sweat does differ between individuals but it's still sweat. And the only reason that the variance can be detected is due to the advent of modern day high precision instruments.

And even if what you said is true about all those acidity, shoe cream won't save you; better douse some baking soda to soak up the acidity.
post #483 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


WTF? Are you saying that some people's sweat have so much acidity that it disintegrates shoes??? What's this? Prequel to some Marvel super hero story..
 

 

There's a good reason why you never see Spiderman wearing Lobbs...

post #484 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

WTF? Are you saying that some people's sweat have so much acidity that it disintegrates shoes??? What's this? Prequel to some Marvel super hero story..

Sweat does differ between individuals but it's still sweat. And the only reason that the variance can be detected is due to the advent of modern day high precision instruments.

And even if what you said is true about all those acidity, shoe cream won't save you; better douse some baking soda to soak up the acidity.
And why wouldn't some sort of nutritive cream for the interior be effective at protecting the leather ? Please expand. Some contributors have said it does. And do you really expect me to put baking soda into my shoes ? And by the way, yes I'm saying that some people's sweat is more acid than others. I didn't use the word "disintegrate", that's your exageration.
post #485 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeath View Post

Weren't you the one complaining about people copy-pasting trite generic arguments? The one that ignores what other experts like Nick V say because they couldn't possibly be as expert as him?

Yes, that was me. But if you read for content and not just for the sake of eavesdropping, you'd understand that my objection is not outside sources per se, it is that people who post them don't take responsibility for the content. Are incapable or unwilling to verify or answer questions. No one is answerable. I suspect that's actually the main attraction for making such spurious posts.

But when you can't be held accountable, it's a cheap shot. Just as kibitzing, eavesdropping and making spurious remarks devoid of any constructive contribution is a cheap shot.

My posting of Steven Dutch's essay is not spurious, it's not trite...and I not only answer for it, I believe and live it.

And, FWIW, I don't ignore other experts...I began my career literally sitting at the feet of experts. Still read and learn from my contemporaries / colleagues. But not all people are expert in the same fields. I'm a hands-on, working, shoemaker. I'm not an art historian or a metalsmith or a bow-tied floor manager in a shoe factory.

--
Edited by DWFII - 1/17/14 at 8:32am
post #486 of 1727
FWIW...

Leather...veg tanned leather at least...is, by its nature, slightly acidic.
post #487 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

FWIW...

Leather...veg tanned leather at least...is, by its nature, slightly acidic.
By which I guess you mean that acids in sweat are unlikely to cause harm, as sweat is lightly acidic too. It sounds right to me. Maybe the main danger is microbial, or some oxidative property of sweat, or both.
post #488 of 1727

Cracking of the upper can mean everything and nothing. 

 

Usually when someone talks about cracking, he means a hairline crack on the outermost layer (I had some clients that call crack a deep cut, so it's important to clarify even the obvious): that kind of cracks usually appear on the most flexed/stressed parts, as the flanks of the vamp or the outer parts of the quarters. There are really too many factors that can create that kind of cracks, aggressive sweat being only one possibility. Excessive thinness of the calf, wrong direction of clicking, excessive stretching, too little care, too much care (yes indeed), too big shoes (the leather is more stressed, since it flexes and folds over itself in the empty space) and so on.
 

It's impossible to identify a single cause without handling the shoes, unfortunately.

post #489 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelonius View Post

By which I guess you mean that acids in sweat are unlikely to cause harm, as sweat is lightly acidic too. It sounds right to me. Maybe the main danger is microbial, or some oxidative property of sweat, or both.

Which doesn't mean that Bengal Stripe or chogall are wrong.

Uric acid might simply be a better medium for bacteria and so forth to grow. Think urine...I've heard that it is sterile coming out of the body but it quickly becomes contaminated. Also uric acid can be associated with overly rich foods, alcohol, and gout.

But I don't think the acidic factor is the whole story--I suspect the inherently occlusive, heat and moisture retaining, nature of even all leather shoes, combined (as you correctly mention) with the microbes that are naturally present on the skin and maybe in the leather, contribute immensely.

Of course the corollary to that is that everything that might possibly increase the heat and moisture retention is only going to further exasperate the situation--corrected grain leather, rubber outsoles, cushioned footbeds / insoles, even oils we put on the leather.

Some of this is speculation...I don't think anyone knows for sure what causes a shoe to crack out...internally or externally.

And FWIW...and in this thread at least, maybe not much...I'd use Bick4 inside the shoes long before I'd use Lexol (although that's a good product, too...maybe second best, IMO) or Lexol nf, or creams, greases, or anything like that.

--
Edited by DWFII - 1/17/14 at 6:56am
post #490 of 1727

I have tried to limit my postings to only those issues that greatly move me in one way, or another.

 

All of this DWF bashing has moved me, and therefore I will post.

 

DWF is an expert. He is an expert because he has worked as a cordwainer for 40 years. DWF is an expert because he can identify every style, stitch, curve, knot, etc. on any different shoe. DWF is an expert because he can literally take slabs of animal skin and turn them into usable, durable, goods that can withstand the harshness of mining, logging, wrangling, etc. DWF isn't an expert because other people can't perform these same jobs, DWF is an expert because he can. In other words, DWF has a deep mastery and wealth of experience that has equipped him to approach any problem as it relates to shoes. If I haven't made it clear already, DWF is an expert.

 

No disrespect to anyone, but this is what I seem to be hearing on this forum. "I have read a lot of books on shoes, I have read a lot of postings on shoes, I have seen a lot of pictures of shoes, and I have listened to a lot of people who are much smarter or wealthier than me talk about shoes. Therefore, with all due respect, I am an expert." You are not an expert. I am not an expert. 

 

We are not experts because we cannot do what DWF can do.

 

Why, then, do people feel the need to speak up? Is it because, maybe, in the abstract, at least, it is somewhat easy to understand how to make a shoe? I would agree that, in theory at least, it is easy to make a shoe. But, and more importantly, have you done it? What work have you actually completed? Have you measured your ability?

 

I define work as creating measurable, quantifiable results. Once you have created something, actual output of some kind, only then have you actually "worked." 

 

Now, there is a lot of discussion that goes on at Styleforum. There is a lot of thinking, yelling, screaming, opining, whining, discussing, etc. That is all in the abstract. By doing those things, you haven't actually created anything, all you have done is written down on an internet forum that you thought about something, and maybe, that you have an opinion on it. In other words, you haven't worked under my definition.

 

In contrast, DWF has worked for over 40 years. He has literally sat and experimented thousands and thousands and thousands of times. He has created many, many shoes. In other words, DWF has truly worked.

 

Work is valuable because it provides data in the world. It is an objective representation of how far someone has come relative to where they were before. Again, thinking about how beautifully you could make shoes is merely thinking, doing - working - is entirely different.

 

That being said, DWF has truly earned the right to call himself an expert. When he speaks, he speaks having done stuff...having triedfailedsucceeded....his words mean infinitely more than someone who has never picked up an awl. I suspect that is mostly everyone in this forum.

 

Disagreeing with DWF when you have had no experience is devaluing DWF's experience. You literally have not worked to earn the right to speak as an authority on the subject. You devalue DWF because you essentially say that your words are as valuable as his, as if you have gone through the same journey as he has, and therefore are on the same level as he and should be treated, and respected as such. You are essentially saying, "yes, yes, DWF you may  have poured 50,000 hours into shoemaking, but, I, with my screen name and pair of $1,800 shoes and 500 hours spent reading posts on StyleForum, am your equal." You are not his equal. 

 

I think it is easy to feel comfortable to speak on an authority on shoes because shoes seem more "accessible" to the every day person. We see them, we love them, we read about them, and we have them. They don't seem too complex, perhaps because they seem so mundate. Therefore, we think, "Hmm.. They are just shoes...how much more can DWF really know??"

 

Let me ask you this: would you want someone to perform brain surgery on you whose only experience was posting on the internet? Let's say they had 50,000 posts, but had never, ever performed a brain surgery...would you want to go under that doctor's knife if you had leukemia? I didn't think so.

 

DWF is a fucking neurosurgeon version of a cordwainer. 

 

To analogize...imagine a discussion by a bunch of cavemen about whether they wanted to come out of the cave and try living in the real world. There could be endless hours of bitching back and forth about whether to leave the cave. In this analogy, DWF would be the dude saying "Hey...assholes...I have been working outside for 40 years and its fine! There are fruits, berries, women. Literally, I have gone out and explored the world and am coming back now to tell you that it is OK to leave the cave!" The cavemen could continue to bicker back and forth, but, at that point, the cavemen haven't put in the work...haven't gathered the data the way that DWF has...in order have an opinion with as much information as DWF's. In other words, DWF literally has more information on which to make a decision, whereas the cavemen have been living in a fucking cave! 

 

DWF has spent his life...his entire life...learning this trade. Coming to this forum, undercutting him by insinuating that he is some dick because he actually demands respect, devalues his craft. 

 

I choose to live in a world where I greatly respect...and am deeply thankful for experts. Experts push the world forward. Experts know where things need improvement. Experts perform that improvement. Experts' rising tide lifts all ships. It increases value in all of our lives. What better gift is there in life?

 

I am thankful that DWF has put in so much time. I personally gain value in my life because of DWF's work. I never knew...I never knew to know about shoes until DWF schooled me one time in a discussion on gemming. Without DWF, I would have gone around thinking that Allen Edmonds were just as fine as DWF's or Anthony Meccarello's (sp?) or John Lobb's shoes. Truly...thank God...nee DWF...that now I know. It is because of his expertise and his passion that I now know more.

 

I don't know DWF; I have never spoken to him in person. But goddamnit am I thankful that humans like him exist to show the lead the rest of us from the cave and into the light.

 

*Drops mic*

post #491 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post

DWF is a fucking neurosurgeon version of a cordwainer. 
icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif


Seriously though, I don't post a lot in his threads, but I've probably learned more from him than I have from any other SF member. He's even been cool enough to respond the couple of times I've PM'ed him directly with questions.
post #492 of 1727
I am fascinated by this threak and others as it educates me in a subject I love yet have no basis from which to comment. I am better therefore for being here.

What I can comment on is the passion in Jermyns poast and dwf has inspired that. Respect
post #493 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post
 

I have tried to limit my postings to only those issues that greatly move me in one way, or another.

 

All of this DWF bashing has moved me, and therefore I will post. etc etc etc

 

Dear JermynStreet, This is heart rendering. Really! It sounds like an epitaph, or a speech at a funeral. But as you can see, DWF is alive and kicking, and thanks to him, maybe this post is one of the most popular, or at least one of the most special, on SF. In fact, my dear JermynStreet (sales home of all the best known and most expensive English GYW shoes, and some hand stitched ones too, thank goodness) DWF doesn't need anyone to stick up for him - he does it all by himself ! And I believe he enjoys it, otherwise he'd stay on Crispin Colluquy, where he can be conforted by fellow professionals and serious amateurs, and not have to be bothered by the pretence of people that hide themselves behind avatars and can only talk of style, and in most cases have never touched a leather needle in their lives. But he doesn't. He has a crusaid. And I believe, despite all the remarks made on this thread, that the cause may be gaining ground, and that the people that react against his words secretly go away and think about them!

post #494 of 1727
No one has ever questioned DWF's skills or experience. Just his (occasional) attitude to those that have differing opinions to his own (which he'll no doubt deny further on in this thread when he next posts). There are others in this thread, such as Nick V. (and others) who also have experience in the area of sole welting and/or repairing, whose opinions here have been poo-pooed by some here, to the great shame of those responsible. It's this bad attitude and decorum (including personal attacks ie. claiming some here as trolls, dicks, idiots etc.) that has (at least partially) tainted the good knowledge he's imparted in this thread (which he'll deny, too, but that's just how it is).

Ah well...back to talking about sole welting etc. Let's just focus on the good stuff, eh? Everyone?
Edited by TheWraith - 1/17/14 at 5:00pm
post #495 of 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post

I choose to live in a world where I greatly respect...and am deeply thankful for experts. Experts push the world forward. Experts know where things need improvement. Experts perform that improvement. Experts' rising tide lifts all ships. It increases value in all of our lives. What better gift is there in life?

I am thankful that DWF has put in so much time. I personally gain value in my life because of DWF's work. I never knew...I never knew to know about shoes until DWF schooled me one time in a discussion on gemming. It is because of his expertise and his passion that I now know more.

*Blink!* Blink, blink.

Thank you for the words of support. It means a lot to me.
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