Sole Welting



DWFII said:

Hand-welted is a direct, and extremely positive, leather to leather connection. It requires a quality insole.

Goodyear welted is fundamentally a cement connection and tenuous at best. It does not require even a leather insole and one of the underlying rationales for using Goodyear construction is the savings that can (and usually are) be reaped by using inferior materials.

In every other industry quality testing relies on placing the item under some stress to determine its limits vis-a-vis strength and longevity of the materials and techniques being employed.

Only with high end RTW shoes...where the shoes in question may not be worn more than once a month and then in only the most controlled situations where wet, dirt, constant flexion are carefully monitored, and repair, short of complete replacement of all critical components...is the see-no-evil model of quality accepted.

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Thank you for the interesting information and discussion. Concerning strength of hand welting vs GYW, as usual not one single piece of measured evidence is presented to show that hand welts are stronger than GYW. Let's have some statistics. I have both types of constructions, and my GYW are used very often in a variety of weathers, and to be honest, over the years, I have not had one, not one, case of gemming failure. Hand welted shoes also rely on adhesives to hold them together. Many of my GYW have been worn regularly for more than 25 years without any problems from the insole welting. Other problems yes, but not from that.



thelonius said:

Thank you for the interesting information and discussion. Concerning strength of hand welting vs GYW, as usual not one single piece of measured evidence is presented to show that hand welts are stronger than GYW. Let's have some statistics. I have both types of constructions, and my GYW are used very often in a variety of weathers, and to be honest, over the years, I have not had one, not one, case of gemming failure. Hand welted shoes also rely on adhesives to hold them together. Many of my GYW have been worn regularly for more than 25 years without any problems from the insole welting. Other problems yes, but not from that.

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Lies, lies and statistics. Albert Einstein said "The only source of knowledge is experience." I'll take experience, and add an intimate knowledge of what the processes are and a considered analysis of the mechanics.

I suspect that you could not even outline how GY is done---the materials and techniques without a search on this board. Oh, yes you know all about gemming...since when?...you know it is canvas, but then what?

As for handwelting, I suspect that in truth you know little or less about leather....just for starters You've never in your life chosen a leather insole. Prepared it for inseaming. Chosen leather for welting. Made a welt. Made hand wax. Chosen and prepared bristles. Made a "waxed-end." Sharpened a sewing or inseaming awl. Actually inseamed a shoe.

You have no basis for comparison. Yet you presume to instruct. In just such a context, James Lee Burke asks, "What greater authority is there than ignorance"

I've been making boots and shoes for 40 some years. For a good part of that time I repaired as well. I've torn apart shoes made by many different manufacturers, after they had been worn enough to require attention. At the same time I have always hand welted. I've seen GY shoes that looked fine (well sort of) until you pulled the outsole. Then, without the framework of the outsole, the gemming was floating, and nearly impossible to re-secure without the last.

I've seen so many problems with GY construction. Dirt that gets inside the outsole and then inside the shoe. Of course you don't walk in dirt. You don't wear your shoes off the carpet or take them off "rode hard and put up wet." The list of problems is endless yet all the same--eventual failure of the security and the structure of the shoe.

Every objective shoemaker on the planet will acknowledge that a handwelted shoe is better constructed than GY (if I'm not mistaken a highly respected Northampton manufacture of GY welted shoes did so just recently in another thread). Even makers who currently manufacture GY welted shoes...if they offer bespoke at all generally turn to handwelting for those premium shoes. What does that tell you? .

The main point of attachment for a Goodyear welted shoe relies on cement. It is a cemented shoe at heart. And often...bordering on "near-as-nevermind' --that cement is used to bond a cheap(er) insole to a canvas strip. Which in turn, is responsible for holding the upper and the welt via a chain-stitch (not even a lock stitch...think the stitch that hold a charcoal bag or a feed sack closed).

You rely too much on "factoids" & statistics and the all too often bogus information that appears on Google/Bing, etc.... In a real sense you're just relying on what someone else has told you. Which is almost certainly third or even fourth-hand and devoid of any real world experience.

Believe my experience or don't. I am not here to convince you. I don't care. I offer my knowledge to help people who proactively wish to understand. To be one small flickering candle against the encroaching darkness....rather than curse it.

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Bengal-stripe, good info throughout, thanks much.



thelonius said:

Concerning strength of hand welting vs GYW, as usual not one single piece of measured evidence is presented to show that hand welts are stronger than GYW. Let's have some statistics. I have both types of constructions, and my GYW are used very often in a variety of weathers, and to be honest, over the years, I have not had one, not one, case of gemming failure. Hand welted shoes also rely on adhesives to hold them together. Many of my GYW have been worn regularly for more than 25 years without any problems from the insole welting. Other problems yes, but not from that.

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That certainly reflects my experience as well.



thelonius said:

Thank you for the interesting information and discussion. Concerning strength of hand welting vs GYW, as usual not one single piece of measured evidence is presented to show that hand welts are stronger than GYW. Let's have some statistics. I have both types of constructions, and my GYW are used very often in a variety of weathers, and to be honest, over the years, I have not had one, not one, case of gemming failure. Hand welted shoes also rely on adhesives to hold them together. Many of my GYW have been worn regularly for more than 25 years without any problems from the insole welting. Other problems yes, but not from that.

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Several follow-up points to hopefully cut through the nonsense and trolling...

First, regarding the claim that you have never had a gemming failure...How would you know? That's right, how. would. you. know? Do you repair your own shoes? Have you ever peeled the outsole back to see what was under it? How would you know if the gemming was failing.

And no, few if any handwelted shoe rely on cement to hold them together. That's just another ignorant remark (ignorant as in the Oxford dictionary definition--"lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated") . In the first place, glues...as opposed to cements...are preferred, and in the second place, there is really no point in the construction of a shoe where cement is needed or critical. Even outsoles can be mounted with glues...or in the Traditional way with just a few temporary tacks.

And better than statistics...(as always click for a closer view)

"Look on these (sic) works ye mighty and despair"

Famous English manufacturer ...I didn't even have to open the outsole to see this.:



High end ostrich boot ..came in for repair-- I "untied the bow" and lo and behold! BTW, this came in shortly after I began to speak about gemming on this forum, and some time (years) after I had stopped doing any repair except for select customers. It was a stroke of luck because over all the years of confronting such issues...almost on a daily basis...I had never once felt the need to document them. Fate intervened to allow me to share with you all. What are the chances?





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Odd - I haven't seen any trolling here. Anyone else see trolling?



DWFII said:

Several follow-up points to hopefully cut through the nonsense and trolling...

First, regarding the claim that you have never had a gemming failure...How would you know? That's right, how. would. you. know? Do you repair your own shoes? Have you ever peeled the outsole back to see what was under it? How would you know if the gemming was failing.

And no, few if any handwelted shoe rely on cement to hold them together. That's just another ignorant remark (ignorant as in the Oxford dictionary definition--"lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated") . In the first place, glues...as opposed to cements...are preferred, and in the second place, there is really no point in the construction of a shoe where cement is needed or critical. Even outsoles can be mounted with glues or in the Traditional way with just a few temporary tacks.

And better than statistics...(as always click for a closer view)

"Look on these (sic) works ye mighty and despair"

Famous English manufacturer ...I didn't even have to open the outsole to see this.:

high end ostrich boot..came in for repair-- "untied the bow" and lo and behold!

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Nice photos. Sure, I don't go ripping off my shoes' soles to see how they're doing when they're perfectly OK, tight, keeping their shape, etc. Otherwise, have I ripped soles off old shoes ? Yes, I have. Resoling done by a local shoe maker (too expensive to send them back by the post) - nice chap. Would you believe it, I talk to him!
As for cement, that word was indeed a mistake. Should have been glue.
As for your other remarks, my experience is quite simply my own. First hand. The idea that no-one who doesn't make shoes has the right to have an opinion about them is just too silly to take any notice of. A bit like saying that Roger Federer doesn't know anything about tennis rackets.



thelonius said:

Nice photos. Sure, I don't go ripping off my shoes' soles to see how they're doing when they're perfectly OK, tight, keeping their shape, etc. Otherwise, have I ripped soles off old shoes ? Yes, I have. Resoling done by a local shoe maker (too expensive to send them back by the post) - nice chap. Would you believe it, I talk to him!
As for cement, that word was indeed a mistake. Should have been glue.
As for your other remarks, my experience is quite simply my own. First hand. The idea that no-one who doesn't make shoes has the right to have an opinion about them is just too silly to take any notice of. A bit like saying that Roger Federer doesn't know anything about tennis rackets.

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Having an opinion is one thing...we all have opinions. It's not the same as knowledge or esp. experience based knowledge. There's an old saying that "opinions are like arses, everyone has one but they're not all worth smelling."

In fact, Isaac Asimov said something that is not only applicable but bears repeating in this context...and again and again if necessary...

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." (emphasis mine)

Which is only, or mostly, to say that at some point opinion has to be honest with itself and recognize its own limitations. Somewhere along the line opinion has to yield to experience, and logic and ...well, 'knowledge", as who should say and to reiterate Asimov.

BTW..I couldn't find this one earlier but FWIW...

Here is a photo of another pair of high end ostrich boots brought in by the same owner as the boots in the last two photos above. They were actually brought in the very next day, were about the same age as the others, had been worn as hard and in the same conditions as the others, in a rotation.

I'm not claiming these are hand welted...although the visual and functional results are the same...up to a point. I believe these were machine done--a machine that cuts a channel into a leather insole and sews the welt on. I've never seen that machine but I run across this method on occasion. I am told it is nearly as difficult to master as hand welting.

The photo draws a nice comparison esp. when taken in conjunction with the shoe photo above and an in-depth understanding of what is involved with regard to techniques, the mechanics of the shoe, and the quality of the materials brought to bear. (as always click for closer view)



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thelonius said:

Nice photos. Sure, I don't go ripping off my shoes' soles to see how they're doing when they're perfectly OK, tight, keeping their shape, etc. Otherwise, have I ripped soles off old shoes ? Yes, I have. Resoling done by a local shoe maker (too expensive to send them back by the post) - nice chap. Would you believe it, I talk to him!
As for cement, that word was indeed a mistake. Should have been glue.
As for your other remarks, my experience is quite simply my own. First hand. The idea that no-one who doesn't make shoes has the right to have an opinion about them is just too silly to take any notice of. A bit like saying that Roger Federer doesn't know anything about tennis rackets.

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Well said. The last bit would make a great sig line.



thelonius said:

A bit like saying that Roger Federer doesn't know anything about tennis rackets.

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Baloney! That's an easy sophistry that only justifies ignorance and lazy thinking. It's a red herring.

Unless Federer makes rackets he's a user not an expert. He knows how to play tennis, he knows about being an athlete. And I'm sure he knows something about rackets and what he likes in rackets. Still doesn't change the fundamental fact that he's a user, not a maker. and I suspect that to some extent, he's not even really and truly interested in learning about tennis rackets...except that they feel good and do the job he wants them to do.

Just like the software that runs this forum...you, me, we are all users. Just because we have 10,000 posts doesn't mean squat. We, most of us, can't code in php; we know nothing about bbcodes or their html equivalent; we none of us know the way Styleforum was configured, what mods were installed, or what controls what.

We're users, we're not experts...we don't even have (again, most of us) any legitimate insights. How do I know this? I am the administrator and webmaster on another forum, one that also runs on php software. I didn't write the software. I commissioned the forum to be set up (it had to be converted from older cgi/perl coding) and then I configured it and added mods but I'm not an expert, I'm not even beginning to understand it enough to comment without an "opinion alert.".

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thelonius said:

Thank you for the interesting information and discussion. Concerning strength of hand welting vs GYW, as usual not one single piece of measured evidence is presented to show that hand welts are stronger than GYW. Let's have some statistics. I have both types of constructions, and my GYW are used very often in a variety of weathers, and to be honest, over the years, I have not had one, not one, case of gemming failure. Hand welted shoes also rely on adhesives to hold them together. Many of my GYW have been worn regularly for more than 25 years without any problems from the insole welting. Other problems yes, but not from that.

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What kind of data do you have that's statistically significant to support your hypothesis that GY welted shoes are as sturdy as hand welter shoes? Care to share some factual numbers?

On the other hand, how do you regularly exam your shoes innards to observe gemming failure or the lack of?

chogall said:

What kind of data do you have that's statistically significant to support your hypothesis that GY welted shoes are as sturdy as hand welter shoes? Care to share some factual numbers?

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What kind of data do you have that's statistically significant to support the hypothesis that GY welted shoes are less sturdy than hand welted shoes? Care to share some factual numbers?

chogall said:

What kind of data do you have that's statistically significant to support your hypothesis that GY welted shoes are as sturdy as hand welter shoes? Care to share some factual numbers?

On the other hand, how do you regularly exam your shoes innards to observe gemming failure or the lack of?

Click to expand...

RogerP said:

What kind of data do you have that's statistically significant to support the hypothesis that GY welted shoes are less sturdy than hand welted shoes? Care to share some factual numbers?

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I never said that I thought GYW shoes were as strong as hand welted shoes. I only have one pair of hand welted shoes, and many pairs of GYW ones. I said that none of my GYW shoes have had gemming problems, even after 20+ years of walking. It's that simple. A first-person experience as a walker who loves shoes and good shoe craftsmansship. Regarding what I base the claim on that none of my GYW shoes have had gemming problems, I answered this above in reply to DWFII. In another thread, but a similar discussion, Bengal-Stripe suggested that the only possibility of accessing some real data about this subject would be to contact a larger shoe maker - he/she suggested Church, although to my mind that could not be independent (because they don't as far as I know offer any hand-welted service). I may contact G&Gs. Logically, the hand-welted shoe should be stronger, and all the shoe makers say so. But, to repeat, I really have not complaint in any sense with my GYW shoes.

And I'm sick of reading exagerated rubbish like this: "Only with high end RTW shoes...where the shoes in question may not be worn more than once a month and then in only the most controlled situations where wet, dirt, constant flexion are carefully monitored, and repair, short of complete replacement of all critical components...is the see-no-evil model of quality accepted."

thelonius said:

I never said that I thought GYW shoes were as strong as hand welted shoes.

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Oh. I know. I have found that those who demand statistical evidence to support a proposition are the last people able to provide the same in support of the contrary proposition. I was just curious as to whether this time would be any different.

thelonius said:

I said that none of my GYW shoes have had gemming problems, even after 20+ years of walking. It's that simple. A first-person experience as a walker who loves shoes and good shoe craftsmansship. Regarding what I base the claim on that none of my GYW shoes have had gemming problems, I answered this above in reply to DWFII. In another thread, but a similar discussion, Bengal-Stripe suggested that the only possibility of accessing some real data about this subject would be to contact a larger shoe maker - he/she suggested Church, although to my mind that could not be independent (because they don't as far as I know offer any hand-welted service). I may contact G&Gs. Logically, the hand-welted shoe should be stronger, and all the shoe makers say so. But, to repeat, I really have not complaint in any sense with my GYW shoes.

And I'm sick of reading exagerated rubbish like this: "Only with high end RTW shoes...where the shoes in question may not be worn more than once a month and then in only the most controlled situations where wet, dirt, constant flexion are carefully monitored, and repair, short of complete replacement of all critical components...is the see-no-evil model of quality accepted."

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Pretty much agree with all of that. This isn't the first occasion where I have seen a prophecy of doom crash utterly against the rocks of reality. Material choices and construction methods guaranteed to result in all manner of footwear mayhem. Only they don't. And that is why some will always deride real-world experience as irrelevant - or worse - as "lies". I welcome the shared real-world experiences of my fellow shoe enthusiasts.



thelonius said:

And I'm sick of reading exagerated rubbish like this: "Only with high end RTW shoes...where the shoes in question may not be worn more than once a month and then in only the most controlled situations where wet, dirt, constant flexion are carefully monitored, and repair, short of complete replacement of all critical components...is the see-no-evil model of quality accepted."

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Well, that characterization is just your opinion and one that, in my opinion, is not honest, simply because it is not examined.

What in the world do you think happens when you send a GY shoe back to the factory for "re-crafting?"

The outsole is replaced. The welt is replaced. The gemming is replaced. The insole is replaced (in most cases, it nearly has to be)--all critical components, all structural components. And done only in conjunction with the original last.

An ordinary shoe repairman cannot do much with a shoe that has massive, or even somewhat less than massive but nonetheless critical, gemming failure. Not without some alteration / distortion of the fit and shape of the shoe.

Yet an ordinary shoe repairman can easily replace the welt and and outsole on a hand-welted shoe. No gemming to be replaced, and the insole is good for another 40,000 with the footbed intact.

You are one person...and yes, I acknowledge that there are any number of people who have had similar experiences here, but most tend to "baby" their "high-end" brand cachet shoes (even if you don't). And who can blame them when they are paying nearly bespoke prices?

And as a result your experiences exist in a "statistical" vacuum.

I've seen the insides of literally thousands of shoes. That's the control group. You've seen...how many?...One? You don't know that the shoes you are wearing right now do not have gemming failure. You say they don't. But that's just wishful thinking--what you really mean is you hope they don't ...even if only for the sake of argument. But you don't know and no one will know short of pulling the stabilizing outsole off and revealing what is underneath.

The first photograph above ...a high end pair of RTW English made Northampton shoes...the owner was astonished, and angry at me for informing him that the gemming was slipping.

And I determined that with a quick glance--the kind of cursory examination that he himself could have performed. Maybe did perform. But he didn't know what he was looking at and, like many here, he didn't want to know.

As they say, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Flies in their eyes.

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