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Sole Welting - Page 18

post #256 of 1792
^ Agreed, Crat. I've never experienced a GYW shoe failing either, after owning several pairs for nigh on 20 years now.
post #257 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crat View Post

I've never experienced gemming failure so I don't know what would happen or how it would feel like.

That particular stitch goed through 3 layers, the canvas (of the insole), the upper and the welt. I can see how serious problems would arise if the cement holding the canvast to the insole fails but even then my guess is that most 'SF approved' manufacturers would be able to re-last and replace the insole. My main point was that in my perception the cemented canvas/insole bond isn't as weak as others make it out to be. I doubt its the only thing that holds a GY welted shoe together though.


Not talking about gemming failure here; just want to get an idea if you agree that GY welted shoes are held together by cement.

 

But it is the only thing thats holding a GY welted shoes together.  See, stitching sewing the gemming, upper, and welt together; insole is cemented to the gemming and nothing else.  So in reality, the insole, which is the foundation of a shoe, is connected to other parts of the shoes via cement only.

 

FYI, I never experienced any gemming failures (I hope, since I can't see the innards), cemented shoes failures, rubber sole failures, fused jacket bubbling, or any of those SF myths.  But that doesn't change the fact that they are cost saving methods for the real thing.  Replacing insoles is harder than making a new pair of shoes as upper leather will deform during regular wear and tear, leaving possible insufficient spaces to re-last again.  At the very least AE and Alden don't replace the insole.

post #258 of 1792
It's a bit like hifi speakers for me. Beyond a certain (price) point I can't hear difference in audio quality between a $$ speaker and a $$$$$ speaker. My sister who plays Cello 8 hrs a day can though and she said the more expensive ones I were slightly better. I believe her.
Am I going to buy them? No.
Why not? Coz Im not enough of a connoisseur to hear the difference.
I'm not gonna pay for something that, even though its better, will not benefit me.

I never said GY wasn't a cost saving alternative. I don't mind that though if the result is me paying 600.- for a pair of shoes that will still last me 15 years instead of 1200.-
GY may not be the best available but its good enough for me (and quite a few others).

-edit-
Oh, to answer your questing; I think cement definitely plays a part in holding GY welted shoes together but its not the only thing holding them together.
I know words like 'cemented' and 'fused' are dirty words here on SF but as long as the gemming doesn't fail I see no reason why a GY welted construction would be inferior to a HW construction.
Edited by Crat - 12/15/13 at 3:15pm
post #259 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crat View Post

It's a bit like hifi speakers for me. Beyond a certain (price) point I can't hear difference in audio quality between a $$ speaker and a $$$$$ speaker. My sister who plays Cello 8 hrs a day can though and she says the more expensive ones I were slightly better.
Am I going to buy them? No.
Why not? Coz Im not enough of a connoisseur to hear the difference.

I never said GY wasn't a cost saving alternative. I don't mind that though if the result is me paying 600.- for a pair of shoes that will still last me 15 years instead of 1200.-
GY may not be the best available but its good enough for me (and quite a few others).

-edit-
Oh, to answer your questing; I think cement definitely plays a part in holding GY welted shoes together but its not the only thing holding them together.
I know words like 'cemented' and 'fused' are dirty words here on SF but as long as the gemming doesn't fail I see no reason why a GY welted construction would be inferior to a HW construction.

 

Lets stay on shoe construction since its tangible.

 

Your answer is wrong.  Cement is the only thing that holds GY welted shoes together.

 

Now here's a quote from Carreducker, an UK based shoemaker team that also runs workshops to teach interested parties:

"This machine glued the gem onto the insole. Don't forget, the basis of a Goodyear welted shoe is glue - if it fails, the shoe falls apart. Not like a leather feather/holdfast. Just sayin..."

 

The whole GY welted construction superiority is a marketing myth, just like the little booklet I read inside LV's shoe box touting the superiority of Blake construction.  Though it does provide similar serviceability as hand welted shoes if the weakest link (gemming) is ignored.

 

There's a difference of knowingly buying GY welted shoes and misled into buying GY welted shoes. Caveat emptor.

post #260 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchapiro View Post

DW,
Can you just clarify what you mean by "if only because to do it correctly the underlying outsole must be clean and roughed up--eventually cutting into the stitching"? While I think I understand, I'm not sure I'll have the attention of an expert again anytime soon.


When you first put the topy on a pair of leather outsoles the grainsurface of the outsole must be roughed-up. this involves sanding with coarse abrasives to break and remove the wax that has been applied at the maker, and to create a surface to which the adhesive will bond.

When you wear the topy down...whether it is in the middle or at the sides or at the toe, dirt and oils get under the edge and are ground into the leather. And the leather is also burnished such that it si smooth and no longer presents a porous aspect tot he adhesive.. So when the old topy is stripped off, the outsole must be roughed-up again especially in those exposed areas which are usually near the edge where the stitching is buried (or not). Even if such spots are very tiny, to remove them means removing some leather and leveling the outsole for a relatively large distance around such spots.Then too the old cement is often cured (overcured? aged?) to the point where it is not the best substrate for a new coat of cement, so it too must be stripped/ground off. A further consideration is that leaving the old cement in place just results in a build up of cement that adds tot eh unevenness underfoot.

So the bottom line is that to do the job correctly, the wax and cement...and anything that might interfere with adhesion of the non-porous topy to the outsole...must be stripped off. I can imagine a couple of ways to do that but none as fast or as efficient as simply grinding it off. In other words, you loose a little bit of outsole every time you apply topy and the amount of insole you have to lose before you start hitting stitches is none too much.
post #261 of 1792
Chogall, all the stitching is just for show?
post #262 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crat View Post

my guess is that most 'SF approved' manufacturers would be able to re-last and replace the insole. My main point was that in my perception the cemented canvas/insole bond isn't as weak as others make it out to be. I doubt its the only thing that holds a GY welted shoe together though.

And you doubt that based on what? Or perhaps a better way of wording it would be "what is your perception based on?" Speculation? Wishful thinking? Or some real world, hands-on experience as something other than a passive consumer? I ask because I am uncertain how much weight to assign to your remarks.

  • What is the cement/adhesive that is used to bond the gemming to the insole? Do the research, hit Bing and Google...that's OK, at least that trumps imagination.
  • What is the stitch that holds the welt, upper and vamp to the canvas? And what is the the most important characteristic of that stitch? The answer is here on the forum, it may even be in this thread. You'll have to read though.
  • For that matter, what is the insole on your favourite pair of shoes made of? Are you sure? Because the quality and nature of the insole will have an important effect on how well the adhesive adheres, esp over the long term.

The fatal flaw in GY is that no connection can be any stronger than its weakest link.

  • Canvas...even doubled...has less tensile strength than leather.
  • The cement is perhaps the weakest link of all. But to inject a little perspective, even the high tech epoxy used shore up the tunnel under that river out east (NY? it was in the news a year or two back) failed. And every single engineer, who reassured the politicians, who made that decision on behalf of an unsuspecting citizenry, who used that tunnel right up until that fateful moment when it all came tumbling down, was absolutely sure that it could not happen. But disregard that. It didn't affect any of us.
  • But the stitching is also a weak link, which I am confident you will, by now (having read through the relevant posts) understand.


If you believe that cement is not a weak link, your next pair of shoes will be entirely cement construction. Take my word for it...these things have a way of finding the path of least resistance and your vote counts. That's the way the industry...as opposed to the Trade...is already moving. It's only a matter of time.

And just to put things in further perspective, Blake-Rapid is a far better means of construction...a quantum leap, by comparison...that does not rely on cement for the primary connection. Or for that matter, skilled human beings...such as the few bottom men left in the world.

Large manufacturers such as Berlutti (?) take that approach, sell their shoes for, if I understand correctly, roughly the same amount as a high end English RTW and...wait for it...make a significant profit and appear to be financially stable in Western Societies. What's more, and of interest to some, Blake-Rapid looks like Traditional handwelted, even up close. All other things being equal, BR is better in terms of quality...objective quality....durability, and appearance than GY for no meaningful price difference.

Finally, your guess would be wrong. See my response to emptym in post #237.

--
Edited by DWFII - 12/15/13 at 5:00pm
post #263 of 1792
I base my perception on the amount of GY welted shoes I have seen&handled in various stages of their life. No gemming failure.
This makes me believe that the construction does not have a fundamental flaw.
I am not saying it is as good as HW but I dont believe GY to be a marketing myth.
post #264 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crat View Post

It's a bit like hifi speakers for me. Beyond a certain (price) point I can't hear difference in audio quality between a $$ speaker and a $$$$$ speaker. My sister who plays Cello 8 hrs a day can though and she said the more expensive ones I were slightly better. I believe her.
Am I going to buy them? No.
Why not? Coz Im not enough of a connoisseur to hear the difference.
I'm not gonna pay for something that, even though its better, will not benefit me.

I never said GY wasn't a cost saving alternative. I don't mind that though if the result is me paying 600.- for a pair of shoes that will still last me 15 years instead of 1200.-
GY may not be the best available but its good enough for me (and quite a few others).

-edit-
Oh, to answer your questing; I think cement definitely plays a part in holding GY welted shoes together but its not the only thing holding them together.
I know words like 'cemented' and 'fused' are dirty words here on SF but as long as the gemming doesn't fail I see no reason why a GY welted construction would be inferior to a HW construction.

 

Thank you Crat.  You hit the nail on the head with identifying the durability issue as the key.  Whatever else one wants to say about the comparative superiority of sole welting, the simple fact is that GYW shoes are not failing left and right.  It just isn't happening.  It is essentially a non-issue, as Nick (someone VERY well positioned to be aware of the prevalence of such a problem) pointed out lo these many pages ago.  It is gratifying to see that others are willing to question the validity of a proposition so clearly at odds with reality.

post #265 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWraith View Post

^ Agreed, Crat. I've never experienced a GYW shoe failing either, after owning several pairs for nigh on 20 years now.

 

Yes indeed.  My experience is the same.  And Justin's comment earlier about EG owners enjoying 30 years of service from their GYW shoes is telling. There are indeed myths at play here.  And it is heartening to see them finally debunked. 

post #266 of 1792

What makes Blake-rapid superior to GYW?

post #267 of 1792
One could argue that blake rapid is superior as there is no cementing used in any bond.
The insole is directly stitched to the upper and midsole, then a second stitch secures the outsole to the midsole.

Imo this arguement would be valid if GYW shoes were failing left, right and center.
post #268 of 1792

 

 

I had a PM asking me what post by Nick I was talking about.  In case others don't want to wade back through 15 pages of discussion, it is here, from page 3:

 

Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

In the past I have commented that IMO the argument of gemming vs. hand-stitched is over-rated.
We do about 30 pair of high-grade re-crafts per day. In my 40 years I have seen tens of thousands of pair. They range anywhere from $15,000.00 custom made Kiton crocs. To J&M's. Retail price ranges on an average pair is between $600.00 and $1500.00. Of course hand stitched is better. Anytime an upper can be attached directly to the welt it will be more secure than using an extra component. That's only common sense. However, the amount of times that we condemned a pair of shoes for re-crafting because of gemming failure is so insignificant I don't even consider it a factor.
If fact, I've seen many more pair that the welt thread failed -or- the holes in the upper that the welt goes through tore than gemming failure.

Sorry but I just don't get the argument here....
post #269 of 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchapiro View Post

What makes Blake-rapid superior to GYW?

It doesn't rely on cement to hold it together. If a good quality leather insole is used, it is probably as good as handwelting for stability and durability.
post #270 of 1792

What about comfort and resoling? It is superior in performance, or just without the use of cement? Just curious here :)

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