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Sole Welting - Page 147

post #2191 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoleFreak View Post
 


Whys that, I thought its normal to spend around or just over £300 or 300 usd for a quality pair of shoes, providing that is what you're getting when purchasing a shoe in that price bracket and not only because you love or are crazy about shoes. But this is what I am trying to establish, are you really getting a high quality shoe, paying the hand grade C&J, John Lobb and EG prices or you paying for the label and would be better off sticking to something like a Loake or similar brand. 

It is normal in SF, people like me is nuts about shoes.  Under 300 USD (not GDP) you can get pretty decent quality GYW shoes in Europe and I am sure that AE´s are pretty good shoes too ( I have none).  This not my reasoning, it is a fact.  There are good blake, rapid blake and glued shoes out there too for less than 160 € too.

 

The second question?.  Go for and answer yourself.  It is very personal.

post #2192 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoleFreak View Post


Whys that, I thought its normal to spend around or just over £300 or 300 usd for a quality pair of shoes, providing that is what you're getting when purchasing a shoe in that price bracket and not only because you love or are crazy about shoes. But this is what I am trying to establish, are you really getting a high quality shoe, paying the hand grade C&J, John Lobb and EG prices or you paying for the label and would be better off sticking to something like a Loake or similar brand. 
I think for your intended purpose, I.e, not really rotating multiple pairs, I'd stick with things like Loake, C&J bench grade, AS; around the £300 level. Sizing mistakes, especially if buying online are less painful that way.
I wouldn't go jumping into EG or Lobbs until you really get the bug. (Which you will)
post #2193 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyJones View Post


I think for your intended purpose, I.e, not really rotating multiple pairs, I'd stick with things like Loake, C&J bench grade, AS; around the £300 level. Sizing mistakes, especially if buying online are less painful that way.
I wouldn't go jumping into EG or Lobbs until you really get the bug. (Which you will)


Oh I will be rotating multiple pairs, I was just trying to figure out if they are actually a better built shoe to what I have previously owned. But think I may already have the bug as all my future purchases will include C&J, some AS Armfield, EG's and maybe some JL's. Already planning a trip to Northampton :D

post #2194 of 2453
For me, I think it comes down to how much you think they're worth. Are G&G, JL, or EG worth the sizable markup over AS exclusive or C&J handgrade? Personally no, they're not. I pretty much only buy Vass now tho which I'm delighted with.
post #2195 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyJones View Post

For me, I think it comes down to how much you think they're worth. Are G&G, JL, or EG worth the sizable markup over AS exclusive or C&J handgrade? Personally no, they're not. I pretty much only buy Vass now tho which I'm delighted with.


And whats the cost and quality of Vass shoes in comparison? Notice they're only available in Budapest which means no trying before buying. 

post #2196 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoleFreak View Post


And whats the cost and quality of Vass shoes in comparison? Notice they're only available in Budapest which means no trying before buying. 
NMWA stocks them in the US and there's a Canadian stockist too. They do run considerably more expensive by this route than direct but you can go thru a proxy such as @Notch and they'll cost around $625 for calf. If you're in Europe you can deal direct with them.
Quality wise, finishing is getting up there with the better brands, leather quality is generally excellent and build quality is again, excellent. Sizing on the other hand can be a nightmare! The quirks of hand-made!
post #2197 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoleFreak View Post


And whats the cost and quality of Vass shoes in comparison? Notice they're only available in Budapest which means no trying before buying. 

Vass is hand-welted, as a bespoke shoe would be, so they have a higher objective quality in construction than the other brands you've been considering, which are all Goodyear-welted.

Finishing may be better on some of the Goodyear makers, but that's subjective and for you to decide whether they are worth the money.
post #2198 of 2453
Thanks MWS, I was avoiding raising the hand vs Goodyear welted debate again! biggrin.gif
post #2199 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post


Vass is hand-welted, as a bespoke shoe would be, so they have a higher objective quality in construction than the other brands you've been considering, which are all Goodyear-welted.

Finishing may be better on some of the Goodyear makers, but that's subjective and for you to decide whether they are worth the money.


I see, thanks for that, will look into the Vass but still want some EG's in my collection. Another question, sorry I'm new to all this, would adding a sole protector of some sort affect the balance of my shoe? I believe some manufacturers warn against this, and so if sending my shoes back for a re sole, could they refuse to carry out any work? 

post #2200 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoleFreak View Post


I see, thanks for that, will look into the Vass but still want some EG's in my collection. Another question, sorry I'm new to all this, would adding a sole protector of some sort affect the balance of my shoe? I believe some manufacturers warn against this, and so if sending my shoes back for a re sole, could they refuse to carry out any work? 
I suggest you search for topy in the shoe care thread but you're going down the rabbit hole with that question
post #2201 of 2453

Lol thanks will do.

post #2202 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post


Vass is hand-welted, as a bespoke shoe would be, so they have a higher objective quality in construction than the other brands you've been considering, which are all Goodyear-welted.

Finishing may be better on some of the Goodyear makers, but that's subjective and for you to decide whether they are worth the money.

Without wishing to restart a tedious debate on hand-welting, I would have to query whether 'subjective' might not have been the more appropriate adjective. From my own experience, hand-welted shoes can fall apart, literally, at the welt. Thread can rot, the insole can give way, etc etc. Not something I have ever experienced with GW. Of course, this is not a scientific sample. However, my observation has been that those most likely to advocate hand-welting seem to be: a) small-scale artisan shoemakers themselves, who might be said to have a vested interest in utilising a little snake-oil, and b) customers of said shoemakers seeking to rationalise their outlay. I should say, straight away, that I have enormous admiration for makers such as Vass, but the fact that their shoes are hand-welted is of no interest at all to me, in fact I would probably see it as a minor hindrance, something I would be reluctant to pay extra for (as I necessarily would have to, unless they offered a GW option which reflected their saving in time).

post #2203 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

Without wishing to restart a tedious debate on hand-welting, I would have to query whether 'subjective' might not have been the more appropriate adjective. From my own experience, hand-welted shoes can fall apart, literally, at the welt. Thread can rot, the insole can give way, etc etc. Not something I have ever experienced with GW. Of course, this is not a scientific sample. However, my observation has been that those most likely to advocate hand-welting seem to be: a) small-scale artisan shoemakers themselves, who might be said to have a vested interest in utilising a little snake-oil, and b) customers of said shoemakers seeking to rationalise their outlay. I should say, straight away, that I have enormous admiration for makers such as Vass, but the fact that their shoes are hand-welted is of no interest at all to me, in fact I would probably see it as a minor hindrance, something I would be reluctant to pay extra for (as I necessarily would have to, unless they offered a GW option which reflected their saving in time).

This is the "yes, but..." argument. If you really and truly didn't want to start a discussion you wouldn't have posted. The only thing tedious about all this is the mistaken notion that you can or should have your say without any feedback.

If you objectively examine the components that go into handwelting, esp. if it is done with Traditional materials and techniques, and compare them to the equivalent technique or material going into GY, it is clear to anyone with a logical and rational bent that each and every aspect of handwelting is objectively superior to each and every aspect of GY. No process is any stronger than its weakest link.

Yes thread can fail...it can fail on GY as well as HW--it is all a matter of where the maker is cutting costs. Yes, inseam stitches can fail...probably moreso on GY than on HW as the stitch is a chain stitch on GY and a shoemakers's stitch on HW. Yes, the insole can fail...again, more likely on GY simply because the technique doesn't demand as high a quality as does handwelting. So much so that many GY manufacturers use paperboard insoles rather than real leather. Again it is all a matter of where the maker is cutting costs--and it is a given that manufacturers will...must....cut costs everywhere they can. Hence that objective deficit of quality in the GY process as compared to HW.

The snake oil comes from those dismissing these basic facts.

If you don't cared about quality or cannot see your way clear to making quality a priority that you would pay extra for, fine. But you are the one rationalizing...justifying your indifference to quality. Don't mistake that for objectivity or even a definitive analysis.
post #2204 of 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

Without wishing to restart a tedious debate on hand-welting, I would have to query whether 'subjective' might not have been the more appropriate adjective. From my own experience, hand-welted shoes can fall apart, literally, at the welt. Thread can rot, the insole can give way, etc etc. Not something I have ever experienced with GW. Of course, this is not a scientific sample. However, my observation has been that those most likely to advocate hand-welting seem to be: a) small-scale artisan shoemakers themselves, who might be said to have a vested interest in utilising a little snake-oil, and b) customers of said shoemakers seeking to rationalise their outlay. I should say, straight away, that I have enormous admiration for makers such as Vass, but the fact that their shoes are hand-welted is of no interest at all to me, in fact I would probably see it as a minor hindrance, something I would be reluctant to pay extra for (as I necessarily would have to, unless they offered a GW option which reflected their saving in time).

Just to piggy-back on DW's response... You are taking an example of a product that didn't live up to its full potential, and then committing the logical error of dismissing the entire construction method because of it. You can't do that. Plain and simple. The hand-welted method is objectively stronger than the Goodyear method. That in no way implies that all hand welted shoes will be better than all Goodyear-welted shoes.

I promise you there are houses made of brick that have lived shorter lives than houses sided with masonite. But, that doesn't make masonite stronger than brick. And it never will be.
post #2205 of 2453

^ Where I would agree with either of the two replies above concerns insoles made of paperboard, which I cannot imagine would have the necessary structural properties for a satisfactory shoe. However, all the GW shoes I have bought have had leather insoles, so that particular argument does no apply. Presumably a hand-welted shoe made with paperboard would be similarly compromised?

If comparing hand-welted shoes with Goodyear welted shoes, before one can say anything is 'objectively' superior, quite clearly one would like to see some sort of statistical comparison of failure under laboratory conditions (hard to accomplish, but perhaps possible). I should say I have no direct involvement in shoe manufacture, beyond some contacts within the Northamptonshire industry,  so all I have to go on is my own experience, mentioned above - and then the conflicting accounts of one or two partisans who appear perhaps to have vested interests.

As I intimated earlier, this is unlikely to be a fruitful debate.

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