Sole Welting



DWFII said:

Why should I answer any of your questions? You're not answering the one I asked above what? Three times? Why shouldn't anyone suspect that you're letting the machine think for you? You have no answer as to where the stretch will come from; you rely on labeling to determine what's prime or superprime and if they came out with a "stupendously-elevated- prime" you'd be the first customer. There's apparently a certain consistent credulity...credulousness...at any rate.

If you have no answer to where the stretch will come from, who is doing the thinking for you?

And speaking of reading what others wrote--you asked, so ...do these words ring a bell at all?
and
Or how about this one:
"Do the name Ruby Begonia strike a familiah note?"

Sometimes you get more #1's out of a bend than other times. But I make things from raw materials. I don't put pieces together. So I don't worry about sending bends back--I don't buy them or pay for them according to a bogus label on the surface or flesh. It's all good--I buy the good with the better and the better with the best and use it all if I can.

Such is the Tradition among Shoemakers.

Thing is I've been answering your questions all along(the one's I consider significant) ...you just weren't paying attention.

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Nice try...You know that the sole and welt won't stretch because of how they are put together, and the nature of the materials. However above those components for example the toe cap there are ways to create more room. You know that as well. You can't predict (in terms of sizing) how much it will go. Certainly, we would not cause any damage during this process. I tell customers it's not an issue of numbers such as a half of size rather, it's an issue of what the shoe allows.The toe cap (although intended to be rigid) is forgiving. You know that as well. That means their is room to expand it. By a size? No 1/2 size? Can't predict that and I don't.. But, I always ask "are they the right size for you? I always get the same answer, something like this...The 10 1/2s where to short and the 11's to long. So I took the 10 1/2s. When I hear that, I know I can help the guy. He's in between sizes. I'm just being honest with the customer.

Let me ask you this....after you made (I'm not talking about closing) a pair of shoes for a customer and he complains about length do you make him a new pair? Surely thats happened several times throughout your illustrious career and you know it may happen with one or more of the several jobs you've got going right now. Be honest, how do you handle that?

No I never said I rely on labeling for anything. Either go back and read it again -or- rely on selective ignorance to feel good about yourself.

First customer? What a ridiculous, pathetic, immature remark.
But, it's coming from a phony at this point for me.

So, I guess you just buy bends and use them appropriately not knowing exactly what you are going to get. If so, that's fair. Then you flaunt that your manual (19th.c old) machine does an equal job as the machines today. They roll and compress. I guess what you're saying is that you roll and compress better/more?

I'll give you a source on where to buy genuine JR no stamped. Bet's off the table as long as you apologize for inferring it may be black market that I deliver my customers.

PM me after a sincere clear and short apology.

Nick V. said:

I'll give you a source on where to buy genuine JR no stamped. Bet's off the table as long as you apologize for inferring it may be black market that I deliver my customers.

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I thought was a despicably cheap shot - even for this source.



Nick V. said:

Certainly, we would not cause any damage during this process. I tell customers it's not an issue of numbers such as a half of size rather, it's an issue of what the shoe allows.The toe cap (although intended to be rigid) is forgiving. You know that as well. That means their is room to expand it.

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If it were as forgiving as you seem to think, it could not do its job. For all intents and purposes there is no room to expand. Zero. You can force it but that's what it is--force. And I am not going to tell the customer there is. That's dishonest, I don't care how you parse it. Or it springs from an appalling ignorance of how shoes are made and a fundamental disrespect for the foot..

But just as importantly I'm not going to try to convince myself that there is. That's the worst dishonesty of all. Yes, you can stretch the extreme end of the shoe sideways but it's forcing it and many, if not most, toe stiffeners will tear even if the vamp doesn't. The only way it works at all is that the foot can easily bear hanging over the insole side to side. But that's not true lengthwise. The ends of the toes will not stand for it. If you don't know that and can't acknowledge that, you don't have any business dealing with shoes or feet.

More importantly, in either case distortion of the shape of the toebox will occur. Which is what I've said all along. You can probably accelerate your Mercedes at a brick wall, too, and get it to move. But one or the other...and most likely both...are going to be damaged.

No I never said I rely on labeling for anything. Either go back and read it again -or- rely on selective ignorance to feel good about yourself.

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First customer? What a ridiculous, pathetic, immature remark.

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You extoll superprime but all logic..if you apply logic...tells you it's marketing hype. You are relying on labeling. You're relying on someone else's judgement, for one, and a dishonest judgement at that. There is no superprime--except in the minds of people trying to get you to buy real prime at a higher price. If you buy that bullshit, you'll buy anything.

So, I guess you just buy bends and use them appropriately not knowing exactly what you are going to get. If so, that's fair. Then you flaunt that your manual (19th.c old) machine does an equal job as the machines today. They roll and compress. I guess what you're saying is that you roll and compress better/more?

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I buy from the best...again, direct, if I can,...that I have access to. I can see and test whether the areas I think are #1 really are #1. That's more than you can do. I do know what I'm getting because I'm buying a portion of the hide that includes #1 leather, #2 leather, #3 leather and #4 leather. Sometimes more, sometimes less. And I get to choose and I make sure with my own hands and my own eyes, not only where the leather I'm using is coming from but what grade it is. And I know exactly what the tannage is.

You buy your cutsoles...again...relying on someone else's judgement to label them honestly and fairly. You don't really know what you're getting.

I mentioned the rolling machine simply to illustrate that there's lots of ways to make even a #3 look like a #1. If you've never dealt with bends, or had the need to utilize marginal areas of the hide, you wouldn't know that...you have to rely on the labeling.

And again...for the sleepyheads...I use the marginal leather for heel stacks and other components, not for outsoles. And because I cut from bends, I know what I'm using. By my own judgement. That I have to answer for. That I have to take responsibility for. I can't foist it off on a dishonest distributor.

I'll give you a source on where to buy genuine JR no stamped. Bet's off the table as long as you apologize for inferring it may be black market that I deliver my customers.

PM me after a sincere clear and short apology.

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Let me ask you this....after you made (I'm not talking about closing) a pair of shoes for a customer and he complains about length do you make him a new pair? Surely thats happened several times throughout your illustrious career and you know it may happen with one or more of the several jobs you've got going right now. Be honest, how do you handle that?

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When you make statements like these, I realize that as good a businessman as you may be, you really don't understand shoes. They're just objects that have to be dealt with, with as little expense or energy as possible. You're out of your depth.

Shoemaking is not dealing with after-the-fact situations that spring from the hubris or misjudgement on the part of an ignorant customer.

When I make a shoe, I have measurements from the foot. I have a footprint derived from a pedograph--like a fingerprint. I know what the clearance beyond the end of the toes should be. I know what the shape and size of the insole should be and how it should relate to the footprint--cover the weight-bearing print and support the plantar surface of the foot.

I have never[/B ] fit a customer short. Never.

I have on occasion fit them too tight or even too narrow.

But I have never needed to remake a pair of shoes. I rely on fitter's models and often have to remake a fitter's model...but never because the model was too short.

If I made a pair of shoes for a customer and they were too short, yes, I would remake them from scratch. This is my responsibility. I am the only one that can answer.

I don't want the source...and I wasn't really questioning that you might have one--just suggesting that the better part of wisdom is that you ought to...ought to question and wonder why Rendenbach doesn't mention it on their website.

In all honesty, I never really cared one way or the other except as information / knowledge to store in my rolodex in case one of my students asked.

If I wanted to use Rendenbach I'd buy bends direct from Goetz in Goeppingen. As a shoe/bootmaker I need and use the marginal leather just as much as I need and use the #1.

But, it's coming from a phony at this point for me.

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A phony what? From my perspective the real phony is someone who doesn't do the work pretending that he does and pretending to knowledge that he doesn't have. You're a businessman. A manager. Talk about what you know.

I'm a shoemaker. No pretense. That's all. It's not rocket science or cardiac surgery.

You're a manager. By your own admission you don't even do the actual physical work yourself. It's phony to talk as if... to pretend...you're a shoemaker. It's phony to pretend to knowledge you don't have. There's already one person here who is a posterboy for willful ignorance.

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This is the only interesting conversation happening on StyleForum right now.

Nick, how does your shop handle the resoling of hand welted shoes?

DW, how do you assess the workmanship of the various bespoke makers across the pond? All about the same? Any better or worse? Which do you admire? Which are let downs?



mafoofan said:

This is the only interesting conversation happening on StyleForum right now.

DW, how do you assess the workmanship of the various bespoke makers across the pond? All about the same? Any better or worse? Which do you admire? Which are let downs?

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I'm sorry, I don't critique other shoemakers...not bespoke or RTW. I will talk about techniques, I will talk about Traditions, as I understand them. I will talk about history. I will, sometimes, talk about styling...although this is such a subjective aspect of shoemaking. I will even talk broadly about marketing strategies and their effect on society with the understanding that it's mostly speculation and opinion. But, I try to limit myself to subjects I know from intimate, first-hand, and long term experience.

I admire G&G esp. their bespoke work.They have a certain flair that is much copied but seldom equaled.

I have always admired Lobb St James. If for no other reason than that they "have turned their back on the machine."

And truth to tell I admire almost every bespoke maker I have knowledge of. I can't really think of an exception to that.

mafoofan said:

This is the only interesting conversation happening on StyleForum right now.

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It's certainly interesting, if not always for the right reasons. I do hope that Nick V. an DWFII are enjoying it more than they appear... I guess since they both keep coming back for more, they must be, and I thank them both for doing so. I'm learning a lot, even with the continuous mental editing I have to do to sift out the personal dross and find the nuggets of experience and knowledge.



FlyingMonkey said:

It's certainly interesting, if not always for the right reasons. I do hope that Nick V. an DWFII are enjoying it more than they appear... I guess since they both keep coming back for more, they must be, and I thank them both for doing so. I'm learning a lot, even with the continuous mental editing I have to do to sift out the personal dross and find the nuggets of experience and knowledge.

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Tell me...how would you like it to go? Like a twitter feed? Limited to obsequiousness and sycophancy? Maybe just inarticulate grunts and slapping the ground?

I don't mean any disrespect but no one seems to have a better blueprint for serious discussion.

Nick doesn't enjoy this at all...why he comes back for more, I have no idea. I'm not reveling in it. But I am fine with it as long as I don't have to confront belligerently willful ignorance and pretense.

PS...what's the sett?



mafoofan said:

Nick, how does your shop handle the resoling of hand welted shoes?

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+1, I'm really curious about this too. Obviously you have JR soles, but if I were to send a pair of Vass for example for resoling, how do you handle that?

Fred G. Unn said:

+1, I'm really curious about this too. Obviously you have JR soles, but if I were to send a pair of Vass for example for resoling, how do you handle that?

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+2.



Fred G. Unn said:

+1, I'm really curious about this too. Obviously you have JR soles, but if I were to send a pair of Vass for example for resoling, how do you handle that?

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The same way we do all others. If you notice Vass proudly displays the JR logo on their shoes.



Nick V. said:

The same way we do all others. If you notice Vass proudly displays the JR logo on their shoes.

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You hand stitch the new soles, using existing holes?

DWFII said:

Tell me...how would you like it to go? Like a twitter feed? Limited to obsequiousness and sycophancy? Maybe just inarticulate grunts and slapping the ground?

I don't mean any disrespect but no one seems to have a better blueprint for serious discussion.

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My simple answer (not just to you but to everyone) is this: you could at least try being polite to each other a bit more often. That doesn't mean agreement, let alone sycophancy, it doesn't even mean not being either dismissive or vehement when that's called for, it just means not being gratuitously insulting or demeaning to others.

I hope you realise that I have never been anything but respectful of your expertise, and will continue to be so. I'll also tell you now that I won't continue this discussion further because, firstly, I don't want to divert the thread any more, and secondly, if you disagree with me, I've read enough to know that I would be wasting my time trying to persuade you!

Oh, nice kilt BTW: I do hope that's you...

Nick - Others such as EG and Perry Ercolino also display the JR logo. Others such as Paolo Scarfora display his own huge logo on his. That's their preference and their prerogative. Yours too. DW doesn't want other logos on his products...that's his preference...and he explained why. There is no right or wrong. You are all free to do as you please. Consumers will either buy it or they won't. It's their choice too.



DWFII said:

Tell me...how would you like it to go? Like a twitter feed? Limited to obsequiousness and sycophancy? Maybe just inarticulate grunts and slapping the ground?

I don't mean any disrespect but no one seems to have a better blueprint for serious discussion.

Nick doesn't enjoy this at all...why he comes back for more, I have no idea. I'm not reveling in it. But I am fine with it as long as I don't have to confront belligerently willful ignorance and pretense.

PS...what's the sett?

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You Sir....have now established yourself a total wind-bag. Worst than that an old one.
I won't even bother to comment on the remarks above. Insanely classless and disparagingly as has become usual you're remarks are and, off fact.
But, I'll re-open my bet.



LynahFaithful said:

Nick - Others such as EG and Perry Ercolino also display the JR logo. Others such as Paolo Scarfora display his own huge logo on his. That's their preference and their prerogative. Yours too. DW doesn't want other logos on his products...that's his preference...and he explained why. There is no right or wrong. You are all free to do as you please. Consumers will either buy it or they won't. It's their choice too.

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That's fair...just questioned his sudden interest....put it out there.