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Sole Welting - Page 97

post #1441 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Yeah, well, DW is entitled to his POV.  We are here to discuss this stuff, after all.  Although I don't agree with DW about marketing, and that you can't both make a good product and make good money, I think that he deserves everyone's respect.  Give respect, get respect, right?

You've missed the point...I hesitate to repeat it but I never said you couldn't make a good product and good money at the same time. I said you can't have two masters. You can't have two Job Ones. You have to decide which takes priority. If you disagree tell me the mechanics of how it is done...

And for the record...I draw your attention to my sig just to emphasize the difference between "good," "better" and "best."

No one is coming even close to the "best" that has been done in the Trade. Not even the most world famous bespoke makers. Just because of that one simple fact acknowledging all that has gone before, in shoemaking, if you aren't dedicated, passionate, and driven to at least make a "better product," then your only alternative is better money.
post #1442 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


You've missed the point...I hesitate to repeat it but I never said you couldn't make a good product and good money at the same time. I said you can't have two masters. You can't have two Job Ones. You have to decide which takes priority. If you disagree tell me the mechanics of how it is done...

And for the record...I draw your attention to my sig just to emphasize the difference between "good," "better" and "best."

No one is coming even close to the "best" that has been done in the Trade. Not even the most world famous bespoke makers. Just because of that one simple fact acknowledging all that has gone before, in shoemaking, if you aren't dedicated, passionate, and driven to at least make a "better product," then your only alternative is better money.

As unsatisfying as it sounds, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I've already brought up the Hermes example.  It is possible to focus on making a highly profitable business whose mission is to bring a superlative product to the market, regardless of costs, because there have always been people with a ridiculous amount of money, and a willingness to spend it.  Successfully acquiring that customer is, obviously, not easy, but clearly, someone is doing it.

post #1443 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

As unsatisfying as it sounds, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I've already brought up the Hermes example.  It is possible to focus on making a highly profitable business whose mission is to bring a superlative product to the market, regardless of costs, because there have always been people with a ridiculous amount of money, and a willingness to spend it.  Successfully acquiring that customer is, obviously, not easy, but clearly, someone is doing it.

It's neither satisfying or unsatisfying. It simply is. I can live with disagreement. I'm married. lol8[1].gif For over forty years, and in all my writing, I've said "my words aren't written in stone."

I wouldn't mind seeing some logic to support the mechanism...not just subjective approbation. But it's neither here nor there. You're entitled to your opinion and and an equal measure of the respect you've shown me. You haven't called me paranoid for no reason or suggested that I was lying or questioned my motives. Points to you.
post #1444 of 1701
post #1445 of 1701
Well said, LA Guy. I understand what you mean and where you're coming from.
post #1446 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

You are missing the critical point, which is that you can market pretty much anything.  This is Tom Sawyer and whitewashing the fence level stuff.  Why do people even care about Goodyear welting (which is what brought us here in the first place?)  Effective marketing. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 Even as late as a decade ago, pretty much no one not in the trade or not somehow related to the industry could tell you what is a Goodyear welt (something to do with tires, right?)  You don't even have to look beyond Styleforum to see this. Search the forum for the term "Goodyear welt", and graph the number of mentions, from the forum's inception in 2002 to today.  You can normalize per member and you'd find the same trend.  Now, every shoe company in the world advertises "Goodyear welted" as pretty awesome.  We want what we want because someone, sometime, convinced us that we wanted it.  I'm going to say that sex, sleep, and shelter/warmth, are the exceptions.  If you can convince enough people that what you are selling is awesome, they'll buy it.  If someone can convince the market that "handwelting and leather insoles are the most awesome thing - Goodyear welting sucks", then you can way more than defray the cost of the materials and the labor.  

The "value" of a product is not intrinsic to that product.  What is value?  It's what we have collectively agreed that it is.  Handmade is not intrinsically more valuable than machine made, nor vice versa.  There is a pretty good argument to be made that the value we place on the terms "authenticity", "artisanal", etc.., are a post-modern reaction towards modernism (go figure, right?)  Even a cursory look at the language used in product copy in the early part of the 20th century shows that modernization is highly praised.  And there are good arguments for it.  Product quality are more consistent, for one.  Fast forward 70 years, and you'll find that a lot of garment companies now embrace small inconsistencies and differences between different garments as a sign of "artisanal quality".  What's changed?  Cultural values.  That's it.  Mechanization is better than ever, and as you said, a lot of traditional techniques have been lost, or are just being rediscovered or re-invented.  But in 2014, we place a lot of value on the romance of handiwork.

We obviously come from different vantage points.  I deliberately refrained from any comment about welting, because I know very little about it. My point is merely that you anything can be sold for any price;  The caveat, of course, is that it's not true that anything can be sold for any price, at any time, any where.  It's highly context dependent.
Yes, I'm pretty sure I was first taught by a Florsheim salesman in the 80s that GYW was the best method of attaching a shoe to a sole because it could be resoled many times, allowing the shoe, if cared for, to last for decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thin Man View Post

Great points by LA Guy. However, for five years, DWFII -- who is a tremendous member in his willingness to talk about the craft, etc. -- doesn't put a lot of weight on the actual experiences of non-craftsmen. Even if consumers agreed that a pair of shoes were the most aesthetically beautiful in the world, made with the finest leather and able to withstand decades of hard use, he would reject the idea that they're good shoes, because they weren't made to his standards.
You qualified this later and I congratulate you for that.

But I just want to make clear that DW's position has always been, as LA Guy suggested, that all other things being equal, HW makes a shoe superior to a GY shoe. And, as I've pointed before, pretty much all the major players in the repeated conflicts about this agree. Why some so often find the need to exaggerate their opponent's position is beyond me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

As unsatisfying as it sounds, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I've already brought up the Hermes example.  It is possible to focus on making a highly profitable business whose mission is to bring a superlative product to the market, regardless of costs, because there have always been people with a ridiculous amount of money, and a willingness to spend it.  Successfully acquiring that customer is, obviously, not easy, but clearly, someone is doing it.
It seems to me that after DW's recent qualification that you both agree.
post #1447 of 1701
Btw, Nick, Fok, and whoever may disagree with me: Etymotics are objectively the world's best (regardless of conditions or circumstances past, present or future)!

Those are pretty sweet Sennheisers though.
post #1448 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

You qualified this later and I congratulate you for that.

But I just want to make clear that DW's position has always been, as LA Guy suggested, that all other things being equal, HW makes a shoe superior to a GY shoe. And, as I've pointed before, pretty much all the major players in the repeated conflicts about this agree. Why some so often find the need to exaggerate their opponent's position is beyond me.

Look, I realize people have been needlessly antagonizing him, and any criticism of his posting style is going to come across as piling on. But not all of his posts are even-handed (without much effort, I found this old post about Septieme Largeur):
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

My point...which I made quite clearly several posts ago...was that here is a thread extolling the virtues of a particular brand, and by extension, techniques and materials that nothing short of denial can elevate beyond mediocre.
i don't care much about this or any other brand, but his opinions have extended beyond just methods and materials to entire brands.
post #1449 of 1701
^That could be, but it's a different point than you were making or I was countering, ie the main point of this thread and the repeated conflicts.
post #1450 of 1701
OK, well, if you've detected a respectful approach from him to posters who disagree and a willingness to respect their experiences, more power to you. I don't disagree that people react strongly to him -- I guess that it is a one-way street.
post #1451 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Here is a picture of the thread failure I mentioned yesterday.
Any shoe repair shop will tell you that they see this occur far more often then gem failure:

I don't know why this point is repeadly ignored?
But what ever........
post #1452 of 1701
Look at that horrible SPI, for shame... smile.gif
post #1453 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

Btw, Nick, Fok, and whoever may disagree with me: Etymotics are objectively the world's best (regardless of conditions or circumstances past, present or future)!

Those are pretty sweet Sennheisers though.

If you can show me some Etymotics with dope leather and chrome construction, then sure.  When I'm not listing to music, I want my headphones to look cool around my neck (5).

post #1454 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thin Man View Post

OK, well, if you've detected a respectful approach from him to posters who disagree and a willingness to respect their experiences, more power to you. I don't disagree that people react strongly to him -- I guess that it is a one-way street.
I never made that claim. My only point was simply that this was not true:
"Even if consumers agreed that a pair of shoes were the most aesthetically beautiful in the world, made with the finest leather and able to withstand decades of hard use, he would reject the idea that they're good shoes, because they weren't made to his standards."
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

If you can show me some Etymotics with dope leather and chrome construction, then sure.  When I'm not listing to music, I want my headphones to look cool around my neck (5).
Makes sense. I want mine to disappear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

I don't know why this point is repeadly ignored?
But what ever........
That was the first I saw it. It is an interesting point. But it seems to me that its significance depends largely on whether someone was claiming that GY is the weakest link, which I don't think anyone has done. Otherwise it seems to reinforce the old line that while GY isn't the best, it isn't all that bad.

But again, prescinding from that part of the conversation, thread failure there is a topic of value. How much can regular brushing reduce the chances that it happens? Also, DW mentioned that well-made shoes would have special kinds of tar/wax on the threads. Have you noticed if poor quality shoes fail more or less often than well-made ones? I wonder too if fewer people would have cheap shoes repaired and so a repair shop would see fewer of them even if more had failed. I suppose it could also be that people with very expensive shoes tend not to need or want to have their shoes repaired.

Btw, loved your last several posts.
post #1455 of 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post



That was the first I saw it. It is an interesting point. But it seems to me that its significance depends largely on whether someone was claiming that GY is the weakest link, which I don't think anyone has done. Otherwise it seems to reinforce the old line that while GY isn't the best, it isn't all that bad.

But again, prescinding from that part of the conversation, thread failure there is a topic of value. How much can regular brushing reduce the chances that it happens? Also, DW mentioned that well-made shoes would have special kinds of tar/wax on the threads. Have you noticed if poor quality shoes fail more or less often than well-made ones? I wonder too if fewer people would have cheap shoes repaired and so a repair shop would see fewer of them even if more had failed. I suppose it could also be that people with very expensive shoes tend not to need or want to have their shoes repaired.

Btw, loved your last several posts.

This point has indeed been made many times previously in this thread. As has the issue of "weakest link". It's going round in circles.

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