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Sole Welting - Page 92

post #1366 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey View Post

I think the main protagonists just enjoy this. They wouldn't keep coming back for more if they didn't. I don't and I'm not getting much of value out of either side, so unless this thread turns back to actual matters of substance, I won't be revisiting.

I am torn between being entrained by this train wreck, and lamenting for the integrity that this thread usually has... decisions.gif
post #1367 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post
 

I do not wish to discredit DWF's experiences. I simply wish to stop his discrediting of Nick, whose family has worked in the industry for generations, and who currently does a significant amount of repair work. Few other than DWF have ever even discussed the supposed rampant problem of gemming failure, and a current industry leader has said it is not an issue. I've spoken to several other cobblers whom I respect, and they have also said they rarely see the issue.

 

Most of them no longer posts on SF.  And the very few actual shoemakers left on SF are willing to jump into this cesspool.

 

Besides, if its Nick V. vs DWFII, why not let them sort it out and observe their shared wisdom?

post #1368 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey View Post

I think the main protagonists just enjoy this. They wouldn't keep coming back for more if they didn't. I don't and I'm not getting much of value out of either side, so unless this thread turns back to actual matters of substance, I won't be revisiting.

I think you ought to think again about this.

The protagonists--those who actually contribute something useful, who reach out to inform and help other people--don't enjoy being dissed or disrespected or called paranoid or liar (even tacitly).

The antagonists, however, don't care and have nothing to lose. They do enjoy it.

That's why every shoemaker who has ever come on this forum, and most of the tailors, if my suspicions are correct, have either left or are thinking about leaving.
post #1369 of 1788
I think the tailors have it easier here because of the general consensus on the tailoring equivalents of gemming and rubber soles, ie fusing and polyester.

Ftr, I have owned and enjoyed gemmed shoes, rubber soles, polyester clothing, and fused suits. I also enjoy and benefit from DW's, Nick's, Justin's, LA Guy's, and other's posts.
post #1370 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

But to clarify you made a comment about me having a "vested interest" in sole guards. That comment is only an example of others such that are untrue and undermining to me. Such comments do not represent my true interests, objectives -or- the reason I spend time contributing to this forum. I'm willing to put that all aside and focus on why we are all really here.

Then you know how I react when you question my motivations or veracity or credibility or my experiences... regardless how different from your own.

If you told me you thought I had a "vested interest" in HW shoes or leather soles, you know what I'd say?

I say something along the lines of "ye ken how vera late ye are with tha' observation, aye?"

I do have an interest in preserving the Traditions of shoemaking. I do have an interest in preserving, and informing people about, the techniques and materials. I have a deep and abiding interest in preserving and protecting the knowledge. I've said that repeatedly...almost since I first came on SF. I volunteered that information. It's almost my defining MO.

Is it a "vested" interest? I wouldn't blink an eye if you, or anyone else, thought so, but since I have never tried to promote my business; since I have repeatedly said I'm semi-retired; and since I don't actively seek orders here, it's stretching the point, I think. I try very hard not to deliberately disparage other makers specifically, but if HW and the acceptance of HW as the new old gold standard of quality were to experience a resurgence of interest, I would, indeed, be pleased and gratified.

But not for myself. I won't change my retirement status. Or suddenly start hawking my shoes or boots.

Nevertheless, I admit it would please me to no end if the few I've reached sought a bespoke HW shoe from James Ducker or from one of the Japanese makers or from Janne or Jan Petter or Lobbs of London. In lieu of the old same thing.

So..."vested interest" it is...

Strangely enough, however, I don't feel my integrity is threatened or being called into question in the slightest.
post #1371 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post



Then you know how I react when you question my motivations or veracity or credibility or my experiences... regardless how different from your own.

If you told me you thought I had a "vested interest" in HW shoes or leather soles, you know what I'd say?

I say something along the lines of "ye ken how vera late ye are with tha' observation, aye?"

I do have an interest in preserving the Traditions of shoemaking. I do have an interest in preserving, and informing people about, the techniques and materials. I have a deep and abiding interest in preserving and protecting the knowledge. I've said that repeatedly...almost since I first came on SF. I volunteered that information. It's almost my defining MO.

Is it a "vested" interest? I wouldn't blink an eye if you, or anyone else, thought so, but since I have never tried to promote my business; since I have repeatedly said I'm semi-retired; and since I don't actively seek orders here, it's stretching the point, I think. I try very hard not to deliberately disparage other makers specifically, but if HW and the acceptance of HW as the new old gold standard of quality were to experience a resurgence of interest, I would, indeed, be pleased and gratified.

But not for myself. I won't change my retirement status. Or suddenly start hawking my shoes or boots.

Nevertheless, I admit it would please me to no end if the few I've reached sought a bespoke HW shoe from James Ducker or from one of the Japanese makers or from Janne or Jan Petter or Lobbs of London. In lieu of the old same thing.

So..."vested interest" it is...

Strangely enough, however, I don't feel my integrity is threatened or being called into question in the slightest.

Very weird to say the least. I never,ever implied that you had a vested interest in anything. You Sir seem to enjoy using that thought like wielding a baseball bat as an influence. You do the same stuff over and over again.
My offer stands.....Dinner as gentleman? Happily on my dime.
post #1372 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


From post #1191 through to this post itself you have been pushing and pushing with no grounds to push. No reason.

In post number 1191 you admit to not having read through the thread. Yet you decide to respond my comments (in response to a question by someone else) challengingly.

In post #1193 you call me paranoid. My response was mild.

In post #1197 you assert that you know more about shoemaking than I do...mostly because you took a tour one time. Again, my response was mild and even slightly amused.

Yes, it went downhill from there...mostly because you took a tour one time and decided that was all you needed to do to pose as an expert. And you've steadfastly and categorically stated that no amount of facts can, or will, sway you. Asserted that lack of experience or knowledge is no impediment to self-righteousness.

Ipso facto.

 

 

I said your post was borderline-paranoid, which was how it struck me. Perhaps an over-hasty choice of terminology at the time. However, having now had more time to delve through the thread, you do strike me as a tad angry and over-sensitive to any who question your point of view, and not exactly reticent in dishing up choice epithets to let others know exactly what you think of them.

 

You question people's credentials, belittle them, and seem to take the view that only you or one or two others with similar experience and of a similar point of view have a right to air their views in public. A forum is meant to be a discussion, not a mantra-like monologue.

 

I'm off now and shall not be returning to this thread.

post #1373 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Very weird to say the least. I never,ever implied that you had a vested interest in anything. You Sir seem to enjoy using that thought like wielding a baseball bat as an influence. You do the same stuff over and over again.
My offer stands.....Dinner as gentleman? Happily on my dime.

Did you perchance notice the "If" at the beginning of "If you told me you thought I had a vested interest in HW..."?

You dinged me for saying you had a vested interest in topy. I don't understand why that would be a problem...I wasn't questioning your integrity, I was stating a fact. You're in business aren't you? A business that purveys topy....

If...IF...the situation or the observation was reversed I would not take offense.

As far as the invite for dinner is concerned, I told you long ago--in that Pm exchange, that it was highly unlikely I'd ever get to New York. I respectfully thanked you and declined. Making the offer over and over again...or in public, despite the optics...isn't going to change all of that. Why do you think it would?

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/7/14 at 6:52am
post #1374 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

You question people's credentials, belittle them, and seem to take the view that only you or one or two others with similar experience and of a similar point of view have a right to air their views in public. A forum is meant to be a discussion, not a mantra-like monologue.

I could have just begun by accusing you of not knowing what you're talking about--it was that clear right from the get-go. Of pretending to knowledge that you don't have. And I'd have been just as correct as I turned out to be.

Similar to the way you assumed you knew more about shoemaking than I did...without asking. Of course, assuming made it easier to accuse me of being paranoid. Or to blithely assert that you knew better than other people (not me) who were telling you that a certain type of construction was not Blake-Rapid.

But instead I asked...and I usually ask.

If, ...if...I'm angry...or paranoid...it is with the pretense and the pettiness. If I'm angry it's because people who don't know what they are talking about are always the first to take offense at simply being asked. Are always the first to name call. Always the first to cry foul when it comes back to hit them in the face. And...always the first to blame someone else.

And always the last to deal with the issues--what is being said, instead of how it's being said.

I agree--forums are meant to be discussions...not opera stages for drama, weeping, gnashing of teeth, soliloquies entirely unresponsive to the other people in the discussion, opportunities to pretend you are something you're not, or to make accusations you cannot, and would really rather not be asked to, substantiate. Objectively false accusations, IOW.

There's no discussion there...there wasn't even the chance that there could be.

If I'm angry it's little wonder. But I'm not...not really...it's like being angry at gnats. They're there, that's all.

Speaking of mantras, here's one for you and the like-minded:

“Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen. Lord, lord, lord. Protect me from the consequences of the above prayer.” -- Douglas Adams

And here's one for me:

"The only source of knowledge is experience." ~ Albert Einstein.



--
Edited by DWFII - 8/7/14 at 8:13am
post #1375 of 1788
What a thread!!

So much time spent over such a trivial subject as HW vs GY welted....myself included...at the end of the day we are all going to have our own opinions and why do we always feel the need to convince others that WE are in the right? Who cares?! If they don't listen then that is there problem.

At the end of the day, shoemaking is going to live on. The true Trade will keep on living and that is because bespoke shoemakers are out there teaching the youth, not preaching to them. Nobody learns from words, they learn from experience.

A handwelted shoe is just as good as the maker creating the holdfast and sewing on the welt as a GY welted shoe is just as good as the glue holding the rib. Are machine-made shoes the same as 'handmade' shoes? No, of course not. That's silly. But handwelted shoes do have a shelf life, they don't last forever. Nothing does.....

I will stand by the notion that a well made handwelted shoe is better than a GY welted one. But that does not change the fact that I STILL think that an Edward Green shoe would last longer than a Meermin if worn in the same exact fashion. (but this is just an opinion as I don't pretend to speak in fact)

AND I HAVE PERSONALLY REPAIRED A HANDWELTED SHOE AS WELL AS MADE ONE JUST IN CASE ANYONE WANTS TO CUT DOWN MY CREDIBILITY.

Is there really anything more to say on the subject......?
post #1376 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

What a thread!!

So much time spent over such a trivial subject as HW vs GY welted....myself included...at the end of the day we are all going to have our own opinions and why do we always feel the need to convince others that WE are in the right? Who cares?! If they don't listen then that is there problem.

At the end of the day, shoemaking is going to live on. The true Trade will keep on living and that is because bespoke shoemakers are out there teaching the youth, not preaching to them. Nobody learns from words, they learn from experience.

Is there really anything more to say on the subject......?

Sorry I don't think it is trivial. Neither, obviously, do the manufacturers who go so far out of their way to boast that GY is as good or better.

As far as shoemaking living on...I have been teaching for 30 years--so that's my credentials and credibility. I regard any opportunity to share and educate as one that needs to be taken. But I also know that the knowledge is being lost. I know it for a fact. Damn few know how to do a channel stitch, much less sew a heel on. Skin stitching was once common-place...maybe more common than through stitching. Now it's marveled at. 64 to the inch ...who can stitch at more than 20? even with a machine to help them? I could go on and on....

But if you think everything that needs to be said has been said, it must be so.
post #1377 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmadeshoes View Post

. . .So much time spent over such a trivial subject as HW vs GY welted...
Well this is the sole welting thread. If there were ever a time and place for this debate it's here. Also, for all the abrasiveness, real or imagined, DWFII is a well informed and passionate defender of shoe construction. I like this thread and I'd rather the heated debate stay here than spill too far into other threads. It already pops up elsewhere too often. If this thread goes, we'll probably have to say goodbye to the Carmina and EG appreciation threads. And I've learned a fair deal reading this one.
post #1378 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldWideWafflz View Post

Well this is the sole welting thread. If there were ever a time and place for this debate it's here. Also, for all the abrasiveness, real or imagined, DWFII is a well informed and passionate defender of shoe construction. I like this thread and I'd rather the heated debate stay here than spill too far into other threads. It already pops up elsewhere too often. If this thread goes, we'll probably have to say goodbye to the Carmina and EG appreciation threads. And I've learned a fair deal reading this one.

Yes, and for me...perhaps because I care too much and can never see it as trivial...it's about more than the construction details. The whole issue is emblematic for the way so much that is good about human society and culture gets dumbed down and dehumanized. And of course, the way our perceptions of, and ability to appreciate, quality and excellence are incidentally (or even intentionally) choked-off.

What is really and truly superlative in society anymore? What isn't really just more ticky-tacky? What isn't mundane? People complain vociferously about the way some high end RTW firms are raising their prices. And why not? What people really want is the visually attractive, the popularly accepted and as close to free as possible. Quality, esp. when it's unseen, doesn't really matter. Substance doesn't really matter.

It's easy to trivialize something that doesn't matter to you or to anyone else.

And 75% of the posts in this thread make exactly that point and no other.
post #1379 of 1788
Well I'm no shoemaker but I am well versed in consumerism, as we all are. I can't begrudge the "PR firms" for talking up their products. The truly passionate should seek to inform themselves and make the decision. These GYW makers are merely trying to advertise, and it's misleading like all ads but it's not false: they advertise a GYW shoe and that's what the consumer gets. I agree with you wholeheartedly that GYW is a cheap imitation of a welted shoe, but if I like a shoe I like it and I will buy it. Despite being marginalized, I don't see hand-welting disappearing completely. There will always be a niche for properly made shoes. Those passionate about shoes will continue to seek out the best. And I look at it this way, GYW are often a gateway drug to high end shoes. I would easily gloss over this thread if I hadn't bought myself some GYW shoes a whole back.

edit: and I'm aware by proclaiming to continue to buy GYW shoes I'm part of the problem in your eyes. Maybe someday I'll be swayed but for now I'm an aesthetics driven consumer of cheap goods, such is the world we live in. Keep fighting though. I have a great deal if respect for craftsmen so I try and purchase real handmade goods when I can.
post #1380 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

I think the tailors have it easier here because of the general consensus on the tailoring equivalents of gemming and rubber soles, ie fusing and polyester.

Ftr, I have owned and enjoyed gemmed shoes, rubber soles, polyester clothing, and fused suits. I also enjoy and benefit from DW's, Nick's, Justin's, LA Guy's, and other's posts.

You would not enjoy any shoes that I make though.  A have a good set of leather tools which I use infrequently, and extremely inexpertly.

 

I feel compelled to point out that "You can either make shoes or make money" is a false dichotomy.  There is no inherent contradiction between wanting to makea great product, and also wanting to make a looooooot of cash.  The best example is probably Hermes.  The craftsmanship is incredible, and can punch with any individual maker in the world, that I've ever seen.  There is a reason that having trained and worked at Hermes is considered a badge of honor.  Bea of April in Paris, rightfully well-regarded, trained and worked there.  They are also a global brand with an incredible marketing strategy and enforced scarcity.  Astronomical prices aside, no one can fault their products or deny that they are the gold standard.  The design is also amazing.  At the Charles de Gaulle boutique this summer, my wife saw an amazing bag made from their leather and their silk scarves.  I told her that I'd buy it for her when I won the lottery or became a billionaire, whichever came first.

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