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Sole Welting - Page 90

post #1336 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Why do you say that? "What I've heard" is what undermines 90% of what you've said here. It's hearsay. Speculation. And just plain wrong --like the Blake-Rapid business. On the other hand, maybe you just weren't listening when someone...maybe someone who incidentally shares my POV--like James Ducker, for instance...told you different.

Ask Nick V. (he's online right now) how hard it is to replace welt on a HW shoe. He's not awfully fond of me and takes issue with a lot of my views, so I have no idea what he'll say. But I've been in and worked in a number of shoe repair shops in my time and never was it a problem.


DW I wouldn't say that I'm "not awfully fond of you". I don't feel that way at all. We differ with many of our opinions. You have your opinions based on your experience and knowledge and mine are based on the same criteria. We have different experiences based on decades in our fields. It's just that when I'm meet with rude remarks and someone trying to shove something down my throat I give it right back to them. No matter who they are. And when it gets to a point where I'm being accused, my integraty being question, only on the basis of total false speculation my gloves come off. Been like that all my life. Nothing personal, I don't even know you.

Any shoe repair shop worth their salt can easily repair/replace a welt. Personally I feel the correct way of doing it is with a last inside the shoe. Either way as mentioned the holes are already there on a HW.

I would like to bring something up that I mentioned a while back.....I don't recall if it was in this thread -or- not.
As I stated many times in the past, from my experience gemming failure happens so infrequently that it's inconsequential. We just fix it on the rare occasions that it occurs. What happens much more frequently (compared to the two) is the the thread used for applying the welt fails. That happens on both GY and HW's. So if you compare the over-all picture regardless if the shoes are gemmed -or- HW it's more likely the thread will fail before anything else.
You could put that in the bank.
post #1337 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


DW I wouldn't say that I'm "not awfully fond of you". I don't feel that way at all. We differ with many of our opinions. You have your opinions based on your experience and knowledge and mine are based on the same criteria. We have different experiences based on decades in our fields. It's just that when I'm meet with rude remarks and someone trying to shove something down my throat I give it right back to them. No matter who they are. And when it gets to a point where I'm being accused, my integraty being question, only on the basis of total false speculation my gloves come off. Been like that all my life. Nothing personal, I don't even know you.

Any shoe repair shop worth their salt can easily repair/replace a welt. Personally I feel the correct way of doing it is with a last inside the shoe. Either way as mentioned the holes are already there on a HW.

I would like to bring something up that I mentioned a while back.....I don't recall if it was in this thread -or- not.
As I stated many times in the past, from my experience gemming failure happens so infrequently that it's inconsequential. We just fix it on the rare occasions that it occurs. What happens much more frequently (compared to the two) is the the thread used for applying the welt fails. That happens on both GY and HW's. So if you compare the over-all picture regardless if the shoes are gemmed -or- HW it's more likely the thread will fail before anything else.
You could put that in the bank.

 

I would say that's one of the more relevant and helpful insights to have been posted recently, from someone who must know.

post #1338 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post

 

I would say that's one of the more relevant and helpful insights to have been posted recently, from someone who must know.

 



Indeed. This is the point I was referring to earlier - and I'm glad that Nick has re-stated it here.
post #1339 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

Thanks for weighing in. I suppose my original point (that @DWFII missed) is that there are very few shoe repair shops worth their salt these days, so even if it is easier to "properly" repair a HW shoe, it still requires someone who knows what they're doing, and that is BY FAR the limiting factor. 

 

Thank you also for the note on gemming failure. That is my experience as well.

 



Agreed with all of that. If I had a repair facility like Nick's locally I would have no hesitation in having them do the work. But I don't. So whether it's GYW or hand-welt, repairs to my premium shoes involve shipping them out of the country so that I have the peace of mind that the recipient does in fact know what they are doing. So ease or repair is effectively a neutral factor.
post #1340 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanklebury View Post
 

 

 

Anyway, I know enough members read this thread who don't contribute, so who's going to help me find a pair of blake rapid wide fit round toe brogues.

 

Come on, they must exist, I have scoured the internet - believe me - and I am appealing for assistance. They are almost certainly out there! 

Shiptons sell a few Blake sewn shoes, like these, that might be what you had in mind. I don't know where they are made however - have a feeling it's the Iberian Peninsula:

 

http://www.shiptonandheneage.co.uk/mens-shoes/mens-full-brogues/humber-mens-black-calf-full-brogue.html

post #1341 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

Thanks for weighing in. I suppose my original point (that @DWFII
 missed) is that there are very few shoe repair shops worth their salt these days, so even if it is easier to "properly" repair a HW shoe, it still requires someone who knows what they're doing, and that is BY FAR the limiting factor. 

Thank you also for the note on gemming failure. That is my experience as well.

Wrong again.

It's actually much harder to repair/replace even a section of welt on a shoe with gemming failure than to repair or replace welt on a HW shoe. As I said, the holes are there--they aren't going to go away. The insole is stable. It's not going to move or shrink or get bigger.

On a gemmed shoe where the gemming has failed...and esp. if it has rotted...the repairman has to provide a satisfactory substitute (some repairmen just use la leather strip0 clean the insole sufficiently to create a solid cement bond and then position the gemming or its equivalent such that the inseam will be roughly in the same place as it was when the shoe was new. That takes judgement and even the best don't always have enough clues to make a sound guess.
Quote:
That is my experience as well.

What exactly is your experience?
post #1342 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isbister View Post
 

Shiptons sell a few Blake sewn shoes, like these, that might be what you had in mind. I don't know where they are made however - have a feeling it's the Iberian Peninsula:

 

http://www.shiptonandheneage.co.uk/mens-shoes/mens-full-brogues/humber-mens-black-calf-full-brogue.html

 

I once asked them for a top down view of the toe box on one of their shoes, and despite receiving frequent e-mails via their mailing list never had a reply to my enquiry sadly.

 

From the toe profile of the sole view however of this model, sadly I can just tell the shape is wrong. Experience has developed a bit of an eye for what I'll fit or not so the hunt continues.. Thank you though for the effort!

post #1343 of 1788

At this rate I'll be selling a kidney - the liver's no good - and heading to see Peter Schweiger. 

 

Curse my ortho-hobbit feet.

post #1344 of 1788
FWIW... short of physical damage, the thread is the weak link in a HW shoe, no doubt. That's why shoemakers long ago came up with a pine pitch based wax which not only provides an antibacterial coating but strengthens and seals the inseam. The thread being nearly 4mm in diameter, it is amazingly strong and can not ordinarily be broken between two powerful hands. And the stitch is a lock stitch. Given that the other components of the inseam are hopefully good quality leather, even such a stout and uniquely prepared thread is guaranteed to be the weak link in the process.

On the other hand, the wax on the thread used in the GY process is paraffin based, AFAIK, and the stitch is a chain-stitch. Break or cut one strand and the whole inseam is in jeopardy.

Having said that, except for the glue, gemming is uncoated canvas. It is subject to all the problems and depredations that unwaxed linen exposed to the humidity and the salt and the bacteria that are present on, and nurtured by, the foot, creates. The reason hand wax was invented in the first place.

Regardless of what you think about the frequency or seriousness of the possibility of gemming failure, anyone looking at the photos I posted in post #1334 9you can get a closer look by clicking on the photos) it is clear that in neither of these case did the thread fail. The gem rotted in one case and the cement failed in the other. Since I didn't tear apart the shoe with the slipped GY inseam in the waist, who knows what the cause was? But I suspect it was cement failure, I don't see any evidence of the thread breaking or rotting.
post #1345 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

I don't think you understand how little the average cobbler, if you can even call them that, knows about shoe construction.

I understand how repair of both handwelted and Goodyear welted shoes work. I'm quite familiar with it. Now please stop treating me like a five-year-old.

I did shoe repair of nearly 25-30 years. I worked with and learned from other repairmen. Your statement is prima facie absurd.

You say you understand. You still didn't tell me what your experience is. Have you ever repaired a shoe? Have you ever even torn one apart to see what's what?

It's a valid question and begs a valid answer. Esp. considering that 9 out of 10 of the people posting to this thread have not done any of that and yet seem to feel like they are entitled to bloviate about it.
post #1346 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

DW I wouldn't say that I'm "not awfully fond of you". I don't feel that way at all. We differ with many of our opinions. You have your opinions based on your experience and knowledge and mine are based on the same criteria. We have different experiences based on decades in our fields. It's just that when I'm meet with rude remarks and someone trying to shove something down my throat I give it right back to them. No matter who they are. And when it gets to a point where I'm being accused, my integraty being question, only on the basis of total false speculation my gloves come off. Been like that all my life. Nothing personal, I don't even know you.

Any shoe repair shop worth their salt can easily repair/replace a welt. Personally I feel the correct way of doing it is with a last inside the shoe. Either way as mentioned the holes are already there on a HW.

I would like to bring something up that I mentioned a while back.....I don't recall if it was in this thread -or- not.
As I stated many times in the past, from my experience gemming failure happens so infrequently that it's inconsequential. We just fix it on the rare occasions that it occurs. What happens much more frequently (compared to the two) is the the thread used for applying the welt fails. That happens on both GY and HW's. So if you compare the over-all picture regardless if the shoes are gemmed -or- HW it's more likely the thread will fail before anything else.
You could put that in the bank.

Truth to tell Nick is that while we have different experiences and different views we share one thing in common --we've both been breathing the fumes for far too long. lol8[1].gif (which is one of the reasons I had a fume cabinet built)

But all that aside, my memory is that you began coming at me almost before I had 100 posts. You've variously questioned my veracity, my credibility, my competence and my motives for posting here. AFAIC,you got what you had coming to you for the very same reasons you cited in your own defense.

And the real problem...in my book... is that all that aside, while vociferous in citing your experiences, you almost never provide a logical, detailed, set of reasons to substantiate your own POV.

Anyone can criticize...as witnessed here repeatedly. Anyone can obdurately deny.

It's another thing altogether to explain and offer insight such that people...if they want to (and they do have to want to) can understand the mechanics and the logic. The how and the why.
post #1347 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

I feel no particular urge to justify myself to someone who cannot even show basic respect for others. I prefer to remain anonymous.

Even so, your experience is clearly contradicted by that of Nick V, who is among the top in the industry.

So the answer is that you're just another ignorant poseur. Hiding. Pretending.

Nick is Nick. But just as you are apparently neither a shoemaker nor a shoe repairmen, he's no shoemaker either. He's out of his depth in some of this.

Fact--no disrespect intended.

And just for a little perspective here...I wouldn't try to tell LAGuy anything about retailing. I'm mostly ignorant about it (if you don't count running a business for 40+ years...and I don't).

Or Despos(sp?) about tailoring.

And I would consider it disrespectful and even dishonourable/dishonest to pretend otherwise.

As I said to LAGuy, I don't know much about anything but making shoes...but that I do know.

You can steal someone else's thunder or you can earn it....you can't do both.
--
Edited by DWFII - 8/6/14 at 12:57pm
post #1348 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastquestion View Post

I feel no particular urge to justify myself to someone who cannot even show basic respect for others. I prefer to remain anonymous.

Even so, your experience is clearly contradicted by that of Nick V, who is among the top in the industry.

Amen to that.
post #1349 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Truth to tell Nick is that while we have different experiences and different views we share one thing in common --we've both been breathing the fumes for far too long. lol8[1].gif (which is one of the reasons I had a fume cabinet built)

But all that aside, my memory is that you began coming at me almost before I had 100 posts. You've variously questioned my veracity, my credibility, my competence and my motives for posting here. AFAIC,you got what you had coming to you for the very same reasons you cited in your own defense.

And the real problem...in my book... is that all that aside, while vociferous in citing your experiences, you almost never provide a logical, detailed, set of reasons to substantiate your own POV.

Anyone can criticize...as witnessed here repeatedly. Anyone can obdurately deny.

It's another thing altogether to explain and offer insight such that people...if they want to (and they do have to want to) can understand the mechanics and the logic. The how and the why.


Your comment in the first sentence is a riot. I hear ya on that one!!!
As long as we are taking a stroll down memory lane. Way back when after several dust-ups you and I had together I offered to get together with you and the Mrs. for dinner if you ever planned a trip to the city. I did this through PM'S. Do you recall? You politely declined. Well I'll say it publicly....the offer stands and, it's on me.
Yes like you I question. If I disagree I'll make it known and why. By saying I had it coming implies that you got the better of me. I don't feel that way at all. I feel the opposite.

I'm much aware of the waxed thread. we do it here ourselves. That has nothing to do with the fact that more threads snap than gems fail.
Neither does the fact that I don't do the work. I witness and oversee it.
post #1350 of 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

By saying I had it coming implies that you got the better of me. I don't feel that way at all. I feel the opposite.

You're wrong. I don't think in those terms. I'm not going to let myself be abused esp. by people who don't know what they are talking about. But my goals are to make my point as cogently and clearly as I can. That's all. If I can do that then I feel good about it. When people come at me with equally clear explanations about how things work and why they ought to...or don't...I generally think it through before respo0nding. Yes, if it contradicts my experiences, I look for flaws in the logic. If there is none, I will accept it and amend my viewpoint. That's the way I work. That's the way I have had to work all my life and career.

It's the mindset that is required to be a craftsman.
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